Best Non-Detergent oil?

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bob555

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Sorry if this has already been covered, or this is in the wrong section, but I couldn't find anything useful from searching:


I have a 1948 Alis-Chalmers G tractor, with relatively low hours, used for Lawn and garden stuff by my family since new. It specs for 30 Weight oil for most conditions, and we've been using the brand x non detergent stuff since it spend most of its life on ND oil. Is there a better non-detergent oil than the brand x stuff? What is the best oil to run in the air filter?

Also, it uses a depth style filter, which we've been getting from NAPA...are they good?
 
The only time I ever heard of using non-detergent oil in an engine was during break-in. But this was 40 years ago. No one that I ever asked could tell me why.

I seem to recall that most all "racing" oils were of the non-detergent type, with the exception of Valvoline racing oil.
 
It was my understanding that in an engine from that era w/rope type seals, detergent oils could be a problem. Not only that, but the engine has only had a steady diet of ND oil since 1948. If the consensus is to switch to a modern oil, I'm fine with that.

I was sort of considering a avaition oil, as they probably are the highest quality ND oils?
 
It would be good to take a close look at the engine before you decide this. If the engine is clean, relatively speaking, in the valve cover area and in the pan, you would do well to switch to something like a 15W-40 HD. It will give superior protection and engine life. The seals will do fine, as the temperature there is far too low to activate the detergents. If the engine is sludgy, a modern HD oil may break loose pieces of sludge, potentially clogging oil passages and causing engine failure. Aviation oils (ND) are comparable to the original NDs of the 40s, without ZDDP, but modern ND single grades made for passenger cars contain ZDDP, which will give you some cam wear and corrosion protection. Best of all would be an engine refresh, starting over with a 15W-40.
 
Well, I've had the timing cover off (on this engine you can see into the oil pan at that point). There is definitely some sludge and deposits on the various surfaces that I could see. Basically a thin black layer on everything.

The engine is low hours (year from 1948) so I really don't want to pull it apart just for switching oils. This is probably a really stupid question, but does the fact that it is an "L" head engine matter in regards to oil choice?

Still very curious as to what oil to run in oil bath air cleaner?
 
Thanks!

I can get the Harvest King oil for certain, as it is the Coastal Farm Store brand...not sure if I've ever seen Citgo ND oil.

I was already considering ordering some Nuetra as sort of a poor mans AutoRX treatment for a couple of my higher mileage cars. I might pick up some Penetrating oil and #132 also!

Should I use the #132 in the oil bath oil too?

What about oil filters? Are the NAPA ones OK? They're a fullflow design that seems to be stuffed with cotton waste.
 
My father had a 50'' Ford 8n front end loader tractor years ago...The general advice from all the tractor experts was that if it had always used ND oil..You MUST BE CAREFUL going to a detergent oil as it will cause an AVALANCHE of sludge and deposits dropping into the oil pan and everywhere else in the engine. He was advised at the time to use ND, but I have since read many stories of switching to a modern deterget oil would be better in the long run for the engine ,but you must drop the oil pan, clean the pump pickup screen screen after running the first change out of detergent oil. I would say that a 15w-40 gas/diesel would not be a good first choice oil to use for the change over, as it maybe too agggresive in busting loose all that crud that has for sure been collecting all those years on ND oil. Remember that if the pick up screen gets restricted or the oil galleys get plugged...GOOD BY ENGINE! I would run a good HD30 detergent oil like Penzoil for about 50 hrs or less and keeping an eye on dip stick for sludge- dirty. After the pan has been dropped and the engine has had its first run of detergent oil ...you could move up to a 15w40 HD oil. Also expect the oil filter to get loaded up with crud very fast and oil pressure must be watch as well.
 
Forgot to mention:

It has a road draft tube, being before most engines had PCV, which, on a tractor seems to be an invitation for lots of dust in the oil.
 
Yup, oil bath air filter. Can't see what good using it would do, but I've never given much thought to what sort of oil is best for one?
 
For the oil bath air filter just use whatever oil you use in the crank case.

I'd try slowly backing away from the ND oil myself. One thought would be to mix ND with HD for a few changes.

That motor is not to picky about grades of oil. Any 30 weight or 15W40 would work just fine. Just don't switch to an HD oil right off the bat.

It's been using ND oil since '48 one train of thought is that it seems to be working for you so stick with it.
 
For those who are questioning the use of non-detergent oils in this application, I think you're off-base.

I know a lot of old-timers who want to use ND oils in modern lawn and garden equipment ... and it's wrong. This, however, seems to be an appropriate application.

As I understand it, modern detergent oils can aggressively attack the older, softer bearings in antique motors.

I generally like Molakule's suggestion but if you can get Schaeffer products, why not use their non-detergent oils?

The one thing I really don't like about the cheaper ND oils is that they are merely 100% oil ... no barrier additives at all. I believe this is what SA grade oils are. I think SB oils have some zinc & phosphorous in them to protect against metal-to-metal contact.

Amalie also makes a full line of SB grade ND oils. Might be difficult to find in your area but they are a big name around here and we've used their ND 30 and 40 weights. I know they have a website which should come up if you Google search using their name.

I wouldn't bother with #132 in the air-filter oil bath. The strengths of #132 are its barrier anti-wear adds and they are wasted in this use.

If you want extra tack-additives for the oil bath air filter, maybe add in a little chain & bar oil into the mix?

Lastly, if the NAPA filter is made by the Gard Corporation I'd trust it.
cheers.gif


--- Bror Jace
 
I think that brother Bror is correct about being careful about not using detergent oils in old tractors. My old Ford tractor called for a straight mineral oil in the transmission. When I grabbed some modern hy-tran fluid at the dealer, an old timer there told me that the new stuff would disolve the painted interior of the transmission and sludge it up. I never tried the new fluid to find out if he was telling the truth.
 
Thanks Guys!

I think that I will use the el cheapo Harvest King oil for now, possibly with the #132. If I ever tear the engine down, I'll probably switch to HD30 or 15W40.

If there was a store within ~100 miles of me where I could buy Shaeffer's products over the counter, I would likely run their oil. Same goes for Amalie, or any other SB type ND oil. I guess that even though I could order such items, it just seems wierd to do it. (Too many years of fondling the oil in the store!)
 
quote:
The one thing I really don't like about the cheaper ND oils is that they are merely 100% oil ... no barrier additives at all. I believe this is what SA grade oils are. I think SB oils have some zinc & phosphorous in them to protect against metal-to-metal contact.
Click to expand...
Bror's suggestion is right on about the cheaper ND oils.

However, I have tested Harvest King and Citgo ND oils and these oils have good levels of AW additives and everything else you need for older engines, just minus the detergents.

In fact, Harvest King ND 40 weight, upon analysis, has an add pack that is almost equavalent to a 75W90 gear oil - very robust.

[ April 03, 2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
quote:
Originally posted by bob555:
Thanks!


What about oil filters? Are the NAPA ones OK? They're a fullflow design that seems to be stuffed with cotton waste.
Click to expand...
The vast majority of oil filters from that era are a bypass design.

Apparently yours is a-
"Spin-On Male Rolled Threads" as per Wix's website.
Wix # 51101, so I ASSume the NAPA # is 1101?

For the air cleaner, use the cheapest 30W you can find. In cold weather, you might want a 20W, or even a 10W if it's REALLLY COLD!!!
You don't need any additives to it.
 
Ok, I bought a WIX filter, which contrary to their website has the cotton waste media like the Napa (gard) filter. I was kinda happy to see that since that sort of media seems like a good choice for a bypass application.

However, I've been all over looking for good ND oil, and could only find el cheapo stuff until today when I found Valvoline Non-Detergent at a small parts store. Anyway, unlike the el cheapo stuff, this says "exceeds SB" and that it has anti-wear adds...so I assume that it is at least second best to the Citgo? I may order some #132 for it anyway just to be sure.

Question: what would be of more interest, a VOA of the valvoline ND, or a sample of the used brand x oil that's in the engine?
 
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