[ April 10, 2005, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
Delvac 1 w/Particle count
- Thread starter Bio-T
- Start date
- Status
[ April 10, 2005, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
MolaKule
Staff member
Him heap big Calcium flakes.
MolaKule
Staff member
As I stated earlier, don't get worked up into any sweats with these particle counts, since one must know what the particles are before one can criticize an oil.
And I hate to tell you this, but there ain't no perfect oil and no oil is 100% clean. I am convinced most manufactures attempt to keep their oils as clean as possible, but many times, the oil is only as clean as the lube oil suppliers original bulk oil in the drum or railraod car.
The majority of stuff you're seeing is Calcium, Boron, and Magnesium. Calcium (as calcium carbonate - calcium hydroxide), Boron, and Magnesium exist as an Amorphous form of the element in an oil. These extra fine crystals float around in oil and when attracted electrostatically, go to the metal and put a smooth sliding coat of molecules on it.
Ca, B, and M also provide the acid fighting (High TBN) characteristics of the oil because they are generally "overbased" sulfonates.
They don't need heat and pressure to dissolve.
And I hate to tell you this, but there ain't no perfect oil and no oil is 100% clean. I am convinced most manufactures attempt to keep their oils as clean as possible, but many times, the oil is only as clean as the lube oil suppliers original bulk oil in the drum or railraod car.
The majority of stuff you're seeing is Calcium, Boron, and Magnesium. Calcium (as calcium carbonate - calcium hydroxide), Boron, and Magnesium exist as an Amorphous form of the element in an oil. These extra fine crystals float around in oil and when attracted electrostatically, go to the metal and put a smooth sliding coat of molecules on it.
Ca, B, and M also provide the acid fighting (High TBN) characteristics of the oil because they are generally "overbased" sulfonates.
They don't need heat and pressure to dissolve.
Wow. Does the adpac need heat and pressure to dissolve?
At those particle counts it looks like a bypass filter would be removing part of the additives. Is it enough to matter?
That is a good point, but apparently not. I have oil samples with and without bypass and the additive package did not decline with the bypass.
A "ferrographic" oil analysis will tell you particle count and it will also tell you "what" those particles are. But at $100 it is pricey. SPICER
The particle count will tell you particles >5 microns and >15 microns. There are 2 numbers, such as 21/17. These numbers correspond to a particle count range. The numbers are meaningless without a baseline, such as a particle count for new oil, a typical particle count for a used oil, or a typical particle count for used oil with a bypass. Then you can compare. The cleanest particle counts are required for hydraulics since the pressures are so high. Can be useful info occasionally. I am doing it because of extended oil drain intervals and use of a bypass. Just want to see how the bypass is working. SPICER
I am beginning to question the wisdom of trying to filter the oil to 16/13 before use. We are seeing (and learning) that many of these particles are indeed additives and they most certainly are filterable. The reason the additive levels do not appear to be affected by filtering is the ICP instrument does not see these "big" particles so when they are removed there is no change. I don't know to what extent this affects the oil's performance but I can't help but wonder. I have recommended to our parts and service people that we do a microscope analysis on new bulk oil before we try to "clean" them up.
A ferrogram may provide some information but it is better with metal particles and seperating by physical properties. We would still not know the identity of these non-metallic particles. SEM-EDS or x-ray analysis would be better but it too is expensive. I'm not sure how well it would work with the organic materials. It might be worth trying to homogenize the mixture and make the partilces smaller, or to do some solubility studies.
You really need a microscope analysis to see what type of particles are present. We see lots of samples that are severely contaminated with metal and dirt and we see some that appear to be additives. The particle count serves as a screening tool to help identify potential problems.
There are different ISO standards in use. One specifies particle sizes from 2um or 5um to 100um: (>5, >10, >15, >20, >25, >50, >75, >100) and calculates ISO code based on the 2,5,15 channels or just 5 and 15.
The instrument we use has a cell with a max particle size of 400um. Most labs don't like to run the sample if there are large particles visible in the oil because of the risk of damaging the cell.
Couple of questions concerning the difference between the CAT SYN and the Delvac1...
1. Is there a value or advantage to the lower partical count/ISO code in the CAT SYN product when using it in 3126B and C7 applications?
2. Are there specific UOA oil condition thresholds for the above CAT applications that would vary between the 2 oils? (or a 3rd, say Delvac1300S)
It seems to me pretty clear as to what specifications are to start with, but much less clear as to what the determining factor(s) for draining are. Would my ending point physical property be the same regardless of the 3 different oils mentioned.
Thanks, Tom.
1. Is there a value or advantage to the lower partical count/ISO code in the CAT SYN product when using it in 3126B and C7 applications?
2. Are there specific UOA oil condition thresholds for the above CAT applications that would vary between the 2 oils? (or a 3rd, say Delvac1300S)
It seems to me pretty clear as to what specifications are to start with, but much less clear as to what the determining factor(s) for draining are. Would my ending point physical property be the same regardless of the 3 different oils mentioned.
Thanks, Tom.
MolaKule
Staff member
FYI:
Before Stinky passed on, I had sent him a number of additives and dyes for particle (size) analysis to determine which additive(s) had the larger particles, since we both believed the additives and dyes contributed to the majority of particle counts in the 50 um and above range.
To my knowledge, he was still making assessments and photographing up to the point of his untimely death.
Before Stinky passed on, I had sent him a number of additives and dyes for particle (size) analysis to determine which additive(s) had the larger particles, since we both believed the additives and dyes contributed to the majority of particle counts in the 50 um and above range.
To my knowledge, he was still making assessments and photographing up to the point of his untimely death.
Actually this oil looks fine I have major oil base stocks that are at this level I do not think additves unless we talk moly, teflon, borates are seen in this test since most additives are fully soluble in the base stock and if seen are at bruce
- Status
Similar threads
