Amsoil 5w-40 from Blackstone Labs

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Viscosity, 77.7 SUS - about 15 Cst?

TBN/ASTM D-4739, 12.4

Flashpoint, +440F
Insolubles - none

Additives:

Silicone, 4 ppm - antifoam additive

Calcium, 3243 ppm
Mg, 11 ppm
P, 906 ppm
Zinc, 1000 ppm

I'd speculate they were trying to keep the sulphated ash pretty low in this formulation. It looks like their other CI-4 formulations but with slightly reduced levels of metallic detergents.
I'd also like to know how they get a TBN of 12.4 with this little calcium/magnesium?

[ April 07, 2004, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: TooSlick ]
 
Looks like a solid oil. Definitely a 5w version of their 10w-40. I'm sure it will show some good UOAs. Not too familiar with the 10w-40. Lot of Calcium, which can act as an AW additive, right?
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Buster,

This is definitely more suited for use in Hp gas engines than HD diesels - hence the reduced levels of metallic detergents and ZDDP.

Look at the VOA I posted for the Castrol/VW 505.01 stuff, its a similar additive chemistry to that oil, and I believe that was the intent.

I don't think this is a super long, extended drain formulation - I'd say 10k-15k would be about it unless you have a 7-8 qt sump like BMW/Mercedes.

TS
 
quote:

I'd also like to know how they get a TBN of 12.4 with this little calcium/magnesium?

Most likely due to the new High-base amine antioxidants, and the high levels of over-based Calcium Carbonates (Calcium Sulfonates).

This amine antioxidants stuff is not inexpensive.

[ April 07, 2004, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
quote:

Most likely due to the new High-base amine antioxidants, and the high levels of over-based Calcium Carbonates (Calcium Sulfonates).

This amine antioxidants stuff is not inexpensive.

Sounds like this oil is pretty well built then.
cheers.gif
 
I only wish I still had my '92 Suburban as I would have tested this oil in it.

May try it in some of my Kohler test engines this summer.
 
I'm just a layman on this stuff, but Castrol and Amsoil seem to thwart voa's, by delivering some good performance with ordinary looking voa's.

I'm thinking that voa's on pricier oils don't show us much of a picture. They are using chemistries that just ain't going to show up.

No boron and no moly in GC, but it does well.

The TBN looks good here.
grin.gif
I like to see this with less metallics myself.
 
quote:

The value of moly and/or boron is vastly over rated, compared to the value of ZDDP ....

I'm starting to agree....German Castrol, Amsoil ASL/ATM have ZERO Moly and little Boron and do quite well, even in turbo applications. Even Synergyn only uses a moderate amount of Moly. As Molekule said awhile back, it's the not the panacea. Lubrizol seems to be against using Moly (I'm assuming the soluable Moly) and it shows via Amsoil. They use other additives that don't show up for friction modifieing.

Even Mobil 1 SS only uses 65ppm, which is very small. RL's high wear could be from the excessive amounts of Moly. Just a thought.

[ April 09, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
I thought that the moly was an excellent AW agent and formed an almost a barrier between the metals. In fact, isn't that stuff designed for high pressure protection? Are the UOA's measuring soluble/residual or available Mo? With the ZDP agents, I though that P levels will be going down to help out the catalytic converter problems as in the new SM oils that will be coming out soon.
 
Schmoe, the whole P arguement causing CAT poinsoning is ridiculous IMO. If you look at most racing oils, or high end sythetics like Synergyn, Redline, Amsoil S2k or Mobil 1 R, they all have a lot of ZDP. It's still the most effective AW additive for the money. Mobil 1's SS is a more advanced approach that adds other addtives like Boron and Moly and high levels of Calcium to offset the need for a lot of ZDP. Remember, M1 is a fully API oil. M1R has what M1 has only with much higher levels of ZDP. So the API is putting pressure on auto makers and oil companies to use replacement additives for ZDP that will drive up the cost of oils and still provide as good of protection as before only with less ZDP.


What I was refering too where the base stock blends and what are in them that don't show up in a VOA. German Castrol and other oils like Series 2000 would have to be broken down to see exactly what they are using and that would cost $300 on up.

[ April 09, 2004, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
 
That M1 R sure looks great. Everything that you could want in an oil except it has low HT/HS.
 
quote:

Everything that you could want in an oil except it has low HT/HS

Considering people are putting up great numbers with 20wt oils, I wouldn't even worry about the 3.0 Ht/Hs of M1R. It will thicken over time. Mobil is a shear stable oil. For maximum power out put, I think it would be a goo choice.
 
I doubt the HTHS increases with time.


quote:

Originally posted by buster:

quote:

Everything that you could want in an oil except it has low HT/HS

Considering people are putting up great numbers with 20wt oils, I wouldn't even worry about the 3.0 Ht/Hs of M1R. It will thicken over time. Mobil is a shear stable oil. For maximum power out put, I think it would be a goo choice.


 
quote:

I thought that the moly was an excellent AW agent and formed an almost a barrier between the metals. In fact, isn't that stuff designed for high pressure protection? Are the UOA's measuring soluble/residual or available Mo? With the ZDP agents, I though that P levels will be going down to help out the catalytic converter problems as in the new SM oils that will be coming out soon.

And moly is a good FM and AW add, depending on levels, but it is about 4 times as expensive as some other adds.

VOA's were never meant to allow someone to analyze, in detail, the total makeup of an oil.

There is a lot more to the oil than just AW and FM adds, and since so many adds are multifunctional,

(see: http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000032
and,

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=000027 )

it's a wild guessing game to attempt to determine quality by VOA.

The primary use of a VOA is used to establish baselines against a UOA.

Addendum: For G-4 Starburt Oils, expect to see the level of ZDDP goes down to yield around 500 ppm of Phosphorus and zinc, and expect to see or "not see" exotic adds take its place.

[ April 09, 2004, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]
 
The value of moly and/or boron is vastly over rated, compared to the value of ZDDP ....

The key to good performance is a very high quality basestock blend and an additive chemistry that is optimized to work with it. That's why I don't place any stock in VOA's ....

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics
 
I agree with Molakule - people on the BITOG Forums tend to focus on 1 or 2 additives, and sometimes forget that it is the total package that counts.

I also believe that the Labs that do analysis need to modernize their analyses - there are a new additive chemistries that have (or are trying) to offset the reduced amounts of ZDDP, which are the best AW/FM components we have seen to date. The Conoco 5w20 formulated for Motorcraft is an excellent example of how modern "thin" oils can be made to be high-performance, and I was a doubter (like Saul of Tarsus) of these "sewing machine" oils until I looked depper at the things that were being added. I would like to see the big labs get off their tails, identify the new additives that are getting the job done, and measure them as well as the old favorites.

Plus, tribology is moving in new directions that will require changes in the way engine oil is referenced. Right now, research is occuring on new classes of lubricants, and I can easily see the day when conventional reporting would show an oil as being -10w5. Yes, even with today's standards, I believe a negative number would be possible, just not reportable. And how will the buying public respond to that? Badly, i eould guess - negatives are so....well, negative!

So I think API or whoever will find a new way - technology moves on, and i think all of us in the oil chain: engineers, consumers, Labs, and oil mfrs. will have to "adapt to survive" in the new world. I can see "smart lubricants" similar to the "smart lubes" being used in the Corvette's shocks, which can change properties in response to electrical or electro-chemical stimuli.

The trend is certainly towards thinner, greener lubes. No doubt.

But focussing on just 1 or 2 components, and then scolding an oil for not having it, is old school. I am not a moly-phile, but it has its peformance qualities, certainly in the area of film strength - great for EP applications. But I have done testing on Lubrication Engineers' LE-607 90w gear lube for the use in the Honda S2000 differential (the only vis recommended, by the way!), and it uses something they call Almasol, which they claim has even higher PSI rating than moly - whatever it is, the tests I ran showed that the EP capabilities of this product are amazing, yet it would probably not look like much on the std Blackstone analysis for the reasons Molakule and I stated.
 
Thank you Road Rage! I had brought this up on some older posts but it didn't seem to go anywhere. My point was that there just has to be "other" stuff in these thinner oils that are making them posts great wear numbers. Until that is all identified, I am sticking to "old school" technology, as you say. I've worked in labs for years and I know trying to discover unknowns can be expensive, but someones got to do it and the first lab that does will greatly benefit from us alone.
 
If I am remebering things right AMines are the work horse of an additive package. Amines work at the moleculer(sp) level to allow organi-matellaic adds to work in conjunction with friction surfaces. It is kind of like reductioning the surface tension of watter to allow it to transfer heat better. In this case it prvents clumbing makes the entire mix more polar.

Organo-metalic compounds would rather clump together and stay as far away from the heat and friction they are meant to help combat. The amines make the environment more synergestic toward them bounding to contact surfaces even when hot.

Amines also modify the natural properties of the base oil. THe right blend of Amines allows you to use lower levels of organ-metalic AW/AF adds and get the same effect as higher treat rate. The down side to amines is cost and too high of a concentration of amines will attack polymer seal materials.

Molakule if I butchered this please correct me I do not want to lead anyone a stray!!

[ May 01, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: JohnBrowning ]
 
buster wrote:
quote:

Mobil is a shear stable oil. For maximum power out put, I think it would be a goo choice.

Mobil will turn into goo, eh? Was that a Freudian slip?
tongue.gif


Seriously, does an oil's HTHS increase as it thickens over time? Somehow I don't think so!
 
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