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#472894 - 05/20/06 07:25 PM M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Big Dave Offline


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 178
Loc: Indiana
Not to stir anything up here. But was wondering if anyone could point out any benefit or weak area's either way between M1 15-50EP and M1 20W-50 motorcycle oil.

Going to use it in my '06 Buell XB12X Ulysses.(engine only)

Thanks,

David

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#472895 - 05/20/06 07:36 PM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Mickey_M Offline


Registered: 08/13/04
Posts: 1001
Loc: Baltimore
I can give you the short version of the differences:

The 20W-50 motorcycle oil contains no VI improvers at all. This means it is extremely shear stable, important in applications where the engine oil lubricates the transmission as well.

The 20W-50 is more polar - this was done in recognition of the fact that many motorcycles are parked a lot and driven little, and also that the cylinders in air-cooled engines are typically hotter than in water-cooled engines.

The detergent package is optimized for higher temperatures than the automotive oils.

Zinc and phosphorous levels will show up much higher in an elemental analysis. There's no issue with "poisoning" catalytic converters in motorcycles.

On the other hand, the 20W-50 is more expensive. It is made in small batches and distribution is more expensive, so you don't enjoy the economies of scale you do with the automotive oils.

I use 20W-50 in old cars that were made for straight SAE 30 or 40 motor oils.

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#472896 - 05/31/06 06:52 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Big Dave Offline


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 178
Loc: Indiana
Thanks!

David

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#472897 - 06/03/06 07:39 PM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
brucelee Offline


Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 175
Loc: Carlsbad, CA
If you are concerned about shear, the Red Line 20W-50 is the best in this area.

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#472898 - 06/19/06 03:45 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Greg K Offline


Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Colorado Springs CO USA
quote:
Originally posted by Mickey_M:
I can give you the short version of the differences:
...The 20W-50 motorcycle oil contains no VI improvers at all.
...The 20W-50 is more polar
...The detergent package is optimized for higher temperatures...
...Zinc and phosphorous levels will show up much higher...
...On the other hand, the 20W-50 is more expensive.

Mickey,
I'm not trying to start a war, but it seems to me that you are actually comparing M1 VT and 'normal' auto oils (normal being those outside of the nnW-50 viscosity ranges).
The VOAs for the two oils ( M1 EP and M1 VT) are darn near identical.
So, could you tell me:
- how EP and VT differ in VI modifiers and detergent?
- what do you mean by polarity?

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#472899 - 06/19/06 05:47 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
DNS Offline


Registered: 06/10/02
Posts: 100
Loc: -
quote:
Originally posted by Greg K:
quote:
Originally posted by Mickey_M:
I can give you the short version of the differences:
...The 20W-50 motorcycle oil contains no VI improvers at all.
...The 20W-50 is more polar
...The detergent package is optimized for higher temperatures...
...Zinc and phosphorous levels will show up much higher...
...On the other hand, the 20W-50 is more expensive.

Mickey,
I'm not trying to start a war, but it seems to me that you are actually comparing M1 VT and 'normal' auto oils (normal being those outside of the nnW-50 viscosity ranges).
The VOAs for the two oils ( M1 EP and M1 VT) are darn near identical.
So, could you tell me:
- how EP and VT differ in VI modifiers and detergent?
- what do you mean by polarity?

Apparently you haven't looked at any recent VOAs for M1 15W50 and M1 V-twin 20W50. The 20W50 has quite a bit more antiwear additives.

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#472900 - 06/19/06 06:35 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Titan Offline


Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 2329
Loc: Morgan, UT
Well, my last 5-6 motorcycles have all had catalytic converters in them. However, only ONE still has it. B-)

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#472901 - 06/20/06 12:14 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Greg K Offline


Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Colorado Springs CO USA
quote:
Originally posted by DNS:
Apparently you haven't looked at any recent VOAs for M1 15W50 and M1 V-twin 20W50. The 20W50 has quite a bit more antiwear additives.

Well, that may be but my above post includes the most recent VOAs on BITOG for the two products, both about 13 months old. I doubt that the oils have been reformulated (again) since 03/05 but it's not impossible.
Those VOAs show that VT has somewhat higher Zn (1823 to 1376) Phos (1683 to 1223) and Moly (91 to 79), but since both are already very high, nothing to write home about. Compare those values to the SYN3 VOA with 1068, 997 and 1 (yes, *1*), respectively.

Perhaps you could point me (us) to somewhat more recent ones?

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#472902 - 06/21/06 09:51 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
jsharp Offline


Registered: 12/25/02
Posts: 3585
Loc: Outside smalltown, IL
30% + greater additive levels are a measurable difference. Mobil also claims the M/C oils are more shear stable and better at corrosion prevention during storage.

Who know if it will matter though. I wish we had more motorcycle UOA's. I think it would be great to see direct comparisons of oils like these two in the same bike.

I'd do it if I still owned a large streetbike. [Wink]

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#472903 - 06/21/06 02:35 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Greg K Offline


Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Colorado Springs CO USA
OK, ya got me there. I'll admit that VT's 30% higher in Zn and Phos than EP is, and 15% on the Moly. And that this is indeed signifigant. 8)

But now go the next step and do the same comparison of the EP and SYN3: pretty much the same delta - EP beats SYN3 by ~30%! (not the Moly, that's just outrageous at ~7800% higher...).

As for the shear stability, numerous articles I've read (online and in magizines) state that this is true BUT it applies to 'normal' (non 50 Weight) car oils and the MC oil. The 15/20W-50's are all expected to see tough duty.

We do have a UOA on the 15W-50 EP at 2,628 m, and you'll note the comment that's it's still (barely) a 50 weight. We have no 20W-50 VT UOAs; there is one posted in the V-Twin Harley forum, but I haven't coughed up the $15 to be a full memeber and have access to attachments -- does anyone reading this string have full access...?

Back to what I stated in my reply to MickeyM, from what I read his statement is correct when comparing VT 20W-50 to normal auto oils, but it is not correct (accurate?) to consider the EP 5W-50 a 'normal' auto oil.

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#472904 - 06/22/06 11:28 PM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Greg K Offline


Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Colorado Springs CO USA
We now have a Mobil 1 VTwin 20W-50 OUA! See here! 2004 EG, TC88. Oil used 4,000 miles, total vehicle mileage 23,846.

Also is a follow up change on same bike but using Shell Rotella T 5W-40.

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#472905 - 06/23/06 12:30 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Greg K Offline


Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Colorado Springs CO USA
Comparing the two M1 UOAs: 15W-50 EP and 20W-50 V-Twin.
--> Differnet bikes, different conditions, different mileage!.
The V-Twin juice began and remains higher on the viscosity scale, but neither appear to have sheared greatly. TBN on the V-Twin is lower, but still more than adequate to continue running.
Wear metals similar.

code:
		      15W-50	   20W-50
EP V-Twin
@2,628m @4,000m

ALUMINIUM 4 5
CHROMIUM 0 1
IRON 15 14
COPPER 13 13
LEAD 3 2
TIN 1 1
MOLYBDENUM 73 74
NICKEL 0 0
MANGANESE 0 1
SILVER 0 0
TITANIUM 0 0
POTASSIUM 2 8
BORON 203 165
SILICON 9 9
SODIUM 5 6
CALCIUM 2794 2249
MAGNESIUM 60 29
PHOSPHORUS 1070 1162
ZINC 1324 1484
BARIUM 0 1
SUS @ 210*F 83.3 105.5
TBN 8.6 5.8

note: the SUS@210 of 83.3 looks to be on the 40-50 weight border but not too much below where it started new (17.9cSt@100C), whereas the 105.5 is high in the 50 weight range but also just below where it started (19.9cSt@100C). See viscosity guide here.

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#472906 - 06/23/06 06:55 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Kowalski Offline


Registered: 06/20/06
Posts: 3
Loc: Illinois
Hey All Oilheads!! 1st post and I'm gonna make it a whopper! With oil analysis being all the rage and from reading some of the specs of various oils here I've been wondering if anyone has noticed any differences in oils that have only 2794ppm of calcium vs. 2112ppm? How 'bout "only" 203ppm of Boron....when I believe from scientific research that we really should be running an oil with 209-213ppm?? My gosh O' golly I just have to have more minerals!!
It's got me to wondering: What about adding a multi-vitamin or two to my oil when changing! That way my engine will get the essentials and be protected against any diseases!!
This is insane!! What happened to just riding the bike instead of spending all this time splitting the atom???.....but it is good reading and makes comparing oils interesting...but even the cheapest oil is good product......

With breaking things down we can now rate oils as being "****-poor"(actually it would still be a good oil) all the way to "outstanding" Yes, society's need to grade everything "run amuck"!! Yes, Im being sarcastic!! This is a good site, and the input is exceptional! Keep up the atom splitting...It does make for thoroughly imformative reading and learning. [Cheers!]

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#472907 - 06/23/06 07:26 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
TooSlick Offline


Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 5785
Loc: Dixie
The 20w-50 has a HT/HS viscosity of approx 5.9 Cp, vs only 4.6 Cp for the 15w-50. That's a significant difference and makes the 20w-50 much more suitable for an air cooled MC engine.

TS

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#472908 - 06/24/06 01:22 AM Re: M1 15W-50 vs M1 20W-50
Greg K Offline


Registered: 08/30/05
Posts: 15
Loc: Colorado Springs CO USA
OK, could you now explain that or point me to a discussion that does? 8^)

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