hey scott, have ya seen the 1200 roadster in the racing orange/black? kinda reminds me a little of the racing bikes back in the day. we have a member in our mc that owns victory 8 ball. very nice running bike, seems like victorys version of a night train..except several thou less. performance wise, given both bikes are stock, hands down to the 8 ball. the vegas and hammer, plus the ness models are quite nice too. they also have a touring bike, while looking kinda squareish, is probably a reliable scooter.