hi all, used MOTUL 300 V 15W50 in my 92 fatboy since new, really disappointed when i opened the engine at 80000 k and found the inside heavily varnished. did 5000 k on each oil change and am really annoyed at condition. i thought 100% ester oils were THE BEST that you could ever put in your scoot. btw, no wear, normal on bores and pistons, but the colour just blew me away . my question is 'are these synthetics a con' or did i not use it in a correct application, thanx in advance
ripped off ?????
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I don't claim to FACTUALLY know the answer to your question...but, I didn't think a varnish-color was neccessarily a bad thing. Now, if you can scrape that varnish off, or if it is flaking in any way, then, yes, that's a bad condition. But, the "no wear" on bores and pistons seems like it did a good job lubricating. I guess the varnish is related to something other than lubrication, such as contaminate removal or suspension, or something else.
The other comment I'd make is, I can't imagine going 5K miles on oil in an air-cooled V-twin. Maybe on a watercooled engine without a shared transmission sump (at least the FB has a separate transmission), but 5K seems really "out there" to me in this application.
I wonder what someone with a non-synthetic would have seen in the same conditions...maybe lots more than some (perhaps only cosmetic) varnish?
I run Delo 15-40 in my V-twin, which is watercooled with a shared transmission sump, and plan on changing it at 2500 miles, unless I detect a change in shift quality...then it would come out sooner. At 7.00 US for 5 quarts, it seems like a prudent thing. I should get an UOA to back this up, because maybe it could go longer than 2500 miles...
The other comment I'd make is, I can't imagine going 5K miles on oil in an air-cooled V-twin. Maybe on a watercooled engine without a shared transmission sump (at least the FB has a separate transmission), but 5K seems really "out there" to me in this application.
I wonder what someone with a non-synthetic would have seen in the same conditions...maybe lots more than some (perhaps only cosmetic) varnish?
I run Delo 15-40 in my V-twin, which is watercooled with a shared transmission sump, and plan on changing it at 2500 miles, unless I detect a change in shift quality...then it would come out sooner. At 7.00 US for 5 quarts, it seems like a prudent thing. I should get an UOA to back this up, because maybe it could go longer than 2500 miles...
Please define "heavily varnished".
Titan, he said he ran 5000 k for kilometers which is much less than 5000 miles. A full synthetic should have no problem with this OCI, even in a hot running air cooled engine.
bmwtech: Yep, I see what you mean. Oftentimes K is used as an abreviation for thousand, which would make 5000 k a LONG way...but, he wasn't using it that way. I agree, a synthetic should hold up OK in a non-transmission shared sump for 5000 k. Thanks for the correction.
Castor,
Sounds to me like you got excellant results considering what I would call extended oil change intervals(for a HD). So why did you tear it down?
Sounds to me like you got excellant results considering what I would call extended oil change intervals(for a HD). So why did you tear it down?
hi robin, i erred on the conservative side of factory maintanence with more frequent changes(refer earlier posting). the bike was torn down after i wanted to look inside an oil filter and found metal in the paper, so i looked further and found a broken cam roller bearing set on one of the followers.changed cylinder head and base gaskets to remedy a small leak at the same time.
ps, apart from tanker man, any one else use havoline 20-50, i want to try a good auto oil that is a little more readily available but am still fighting the 'more expensive is better' fallacy. at the moment, auto GTX is the cheapest, any thoughts???
ps, apart from tanker man, any one else use havoline 20-50, i want to try a good auto oil that is a little more readily available but am still fighting the 'more expensive is better' fallacy. at the moment, auto GTX is the cheapest, any thoughts???
Not at all unusual, seen the same thing using other synthetic oils. It's not thick enough to flake but you do "feel" it when machining parts. Some tests I've seen show loss in ring seal as the coating build up, but they were from companys that blend with highly refined group3 stock so you take it FWIW.
..."ps, apart from tanker man, any one else use havoline 20-50, i want to try a good auto oil that is a little more readily available but am still fighting the 'more expensive is better' fallacy."
I think most guys are afraid to try the Havoline. I keep hearing them say stuff like "Your results are ONE motorcycle on TWO UOA's of Havoline." Which is of course true, but as I've told others, while my results don't prove that Havoline 20W50 is a great Harley Davidson engine oil, they certainly do nothing to disprove the notion.
Try a run of Havoline 20W50 (make sure it's SL, which it should be, as I don't think they're planning to change the 20W50 to SM anytime soon). Run it 2500 miles and get a UOA on it. It'll shear back to a 40 weight, which should be expected, but I believe that your wear numbers will look good.
You might want to run about 500 miles as a flush to help get rid of any residual metal you have leftover from the bearing failure.
When I ran Mobil 1 15W50 in my bike, I could actually hear a lot more engine noise--even what sounded like a "squeaking" at hot idle. Not to necessarily blame the Mobil 1, but I've yet to hear that sound since switching to the dino Havoline.
One last thing. While you did get a lot of miles on that engine, it's pretty common for HD's (especially the Evolutions) to exceed 100,000 miles with no service problems. There are currently two Evolution powered motorcycles in Harley's museum in Milwaukee which each ran over 400,000 miles (one ran 460,000) on Harley dino 20W50 at 2500 mile intervals.
Dan
I think most guys are afraid to try the Havoline. I keep hearing them say stuff like "Your results are ONE motorcycle on TWO UOA's of Havoline." Which is of course true, but as I've told others, while my results don't prove that Havoline 20W50 is a great Harley Davidson engine oil, they certainly do nothing to disprove the notion.
Try a run of Havoline 20W50 (make sure it's SL, which it should be, as I don't think they're planning to change the 20W50 to SM anytime soon). Run it 2500 miles and get a UOA on it. It'll shear back to a 40 weight, which should be expected, but I believe that your wear numbers will look good.
You might want to run about 500 miles as a flush to help get rid of any residual metal you have leftover from the bearing failure.
When I ran Mobil 1 15W50 in my bike, I could actually hear a lot more engine noise--even what sounded like a "squeaking" at hot idle. Not to necessarily blame the Mobil 1, but I've yet to hear that sound since switching to the dino Havoline.
One last thing. While you did get a lot of miles on that engine, it's pretty common for HD's (especially the Evolutions) to exceed 100,000 miles with no service problems. There are currently two Evolution powered motorcycles in Harley's museum in Milwaukee which each ran over 400,000 miles (one ran 460,000) on Harley dino 20W50 at 2500 mile intervals.
Dan
If you had no other deposits besides a thin coating of varnish on some of the internals, I would say the oil did fine and that you were not necessarily ripped off. Especially if that varnish came off with some carb cleaner. That sounds like a really clean engine considering it is air-cooled and has 80,000 kilometers on it! IIRC that particular Motul is one of their more expensive oils and tops Redline, Amsoil and Mobil 1 in price. I would personally use one of these 3 if you really like synthetic and extended OCI's. I would like to see how the Havoline would have done in the same service at 5000 kilometer OCI. I suspect it would do well also unless ridden in hot climate with heavy traffic often.
hi beemer, when i say ripped off, i was paying oz$90 for 4 litres and wonder if i could have achieved similar or better results using a less expensive oil and/or changing it more frequently, but like i said the factory manual and handbook say 5000 miles for normal use in temperatures 60-100 degrees farenheit, and i stayed well within those limits. btw, what is popular opinion on the factory recomendations?thanx all, johnny
I would go 5000 miles or 8000km only if using a quality synthetic such as the one you were using. I am not sure if the following are available Down Under, but my first choices here would be Mobil 1, Amsoil, or Redline, all readliy available in US for around $8 a quart, give or take a dollar. Those are the ones I have experience with. Many folks are more comfortable with 2000 miles using a quality dino, but most would not go 5000 miles with dino unless very "easy" miles in a non-shared sump.
If it were me, I would run the Havoline and never look back...if I rode street bikes.
I think that oz for oz, the Havoline 20w50 blows the "more expensive is better" fallacy out of the water.
But...I have a differnt take on OCI's for bikes.
I would NEVER run ANY oil for more than 1500-2000 miles in ANY street motorcycle.
On a dirt bike (or asphault racer), I would change oil in a matter of 2-4 hours of run time.
Yes, the synthetic oils will stay in grade far longer than a conventional dino may, but why???
It is FAR more important to flush out the particulate, that ALL motorcycle engines create, in a very short period of time. Coupled with high contamination rates, and fast shearing of any grade, it only makes sense to have cleanliness in mind for OCI's, rather than how long your oil will continue to stay in grade.
It may well still be in grade 4000 miles later, but it WILL be full of suspended crapola.
Again, for the sort of OCI's we should be considering for motorcycles, a quality oil for the least amont of money is a wise choice.
The Havoline 20-50 fits that bill.
If I were going to chose a full dino, it would probably be Exxon 20w50. Hard to beat the price.
Also, HDEO's are looking better and better all the time for bikes, in both quality and economy.
I think that oz for oz, the Havoline 20w50 blows the "more expensive is better" fallacy out of the water.
But...I have a differnt take on OCI's for bikes.
I would NEVER run ANY oil for more than 1500-2000 miles in ANY street motorcycle.
On a dirt bike (or asphault racer), I would change oil in a matter of 2-4 hours of run time.
Yes, the synthetic oils will stay in grade far longer than a conventional dino may, but why???
It is FAR more important to flush out the particulate, that ALL motorcycle engines create, in a very short period of time. Coupled with high contamination rates, and fast shearing of any grade, it only makes sense to have cleanliness in mind for OCI's, rather than how long your oil will continue to stay in grade.
It may well still be in grade 4000 miles later, but it WILL be full of suspended crapola.
Again, for the sort of OCI's we should be considering for motorcycles, a quality oil for the least amont of money is a wise choice.
The Havoline 20-50 fits that bill.
If I were going to chose a full dino, it would probably be Exxon 20w50. Hard to beat the price.
Also, HDEO's are looking better and better all the time for bikes, in both quality and economy.
Years ago it was normal to see varnish on engine internals. Oil dipsticks were always dark brown. It didn't really cause much harm, BUT was indicative of blow-by contaminants and oil breakdown. Modern oils combined with PCV (positive crankcase ventilation) should keep engine internals sparkling clean.
I suspect you have an engine case ventilation problem. Look for a kinked hose somewhere.
Regards, Gary in Sandy Eggo
P.S. - I run Pennzoil SAE-40 in my Intruder 1400. I usta do oil changes at 2500 miles on my Virago, BUT, at 2500 miles in the Intruder, it looks as clear as the day I put it in. I change it at 5000 miles intervals, and it's still a light amber when I drain it out. In 5000 miles, the oil level drops about 1/8" (about half a cupfull) on the dipstick. I never overheat my oil, don't do a lot of engine goosing (some, not a lot), and run an avg of 130 miles per cold start.
I suspect you have an engine case ventilation problem. Look for a kinked hose somewhere.
Regards, Gary in Sandy Eggo
P.S. - I run Pennzoil SAE-40 in my Intruder 1400. I usta do oil changes at 2500 miles on my Virago, BUT, at 2500 miles in the Intruder, it looks as clear as the day I put it in. I change it at 5000 miles intervals, and it's still a light amber when I drain it out. In 5000 miles, the oil level drops about 1/8" (about half a cupfull) on the dipstick. I never overheat my oil, don't do a lot of engine goosing (some, not a lot), and run an avg of 130 miles per cold start.
ok blokes, tried the havoline 20/50 and had a slight hot idle rattle ( imagination?) so after 200 k's, changed to PENRITE GAS 20/60 as per site recomendation, very happy, will do 3000 km oil changes and cut open filter.no problem with PCV thanks sandy. btw, what does HDEO etc mean
" I change it at 5000 miles intervals, and it's still a light amber when I drain it out."
I've never seen ANY engine have light amber oil after that many miles, UNLESS the oil isn't doing it's job cleaning things
I'd be very very scared of light amber oil after 5000 miles
I've never seen ANY engine have light amber oil after that many miles, UNLESS the oil isn't doing it's job cleaning things
I'd be very very scared of light amber oil after 5000 miles
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