Why is motorcycle oil so expensive?

[J]

I just had oil change done on my Kawasaki ZX-6R
motorcycle, and the synthetic oil the dealership
used was $10 a quart

The bottle says that the oil is 100% synthetic
and that it has some esters. The oil is made
for Kawasaki by Motul. I also have heard
that the additive package in motorcycle oils
is much more substantial than that of automobile
oils.

So, what about the motorcycle application
makes the oils so heavy duty and expensive?

 

[Robbie Alexander]

Kawasaki by Motul.

That's why!

 

[vad]

This is how the dealeships operate.
They charge a hefty premium for everything, including the oil.

 

[sdmahr]

Volume ! Motorcycle oil doesn't see near the volume of the Automotive blends. I pay $8.00 a quart for Mobil 1 Motorcycle oils and $5.00 for auto oils.

 

[fuel tanker man]

Folks, if this topic ends up getting locked, go to the Motorcycle Lubrication forum. That's probably where it'll get moved to...

Motorcycle oil is--for the most part--a HUGE RIP-OFF.

They'll tell you a bunch of tripe about "specially balanced additive packages" and such.

In truth, most 'cycle oils simply lack moly (which has been blamed, perhaps unjustifiably, for causing wet clutches to slip). And they'll likely have a little more zinc and phosphorous than passenger car motor oils.

If you'll check the Motorcycle UOA's here, you'll find two UOA's for my Harley Davidson where I used regular Havoline 20W50 dino oil. If I do say so myself, my wear metal results literally trounce the numbers being posted by folks who have used other oils in the HD big twin engine--including synthetics. So car oils can do a great job in motorcycles.

You really don't need a synthetic oil in your motorcycle--unless you plan on severely over-heating it. In that case, the syn may prevent oil from baking into sludge. But even then, the newer dino oils are extremely robust, and your engine would likely be toast long before any of the group II and II+ dinos baked into sludge.

It's your machine. If synthetic oil gives you more peace of mind, then keep on using it. If I were you, however, in that particular bike--I'd use Shell dino Rotella, 15W40 and change it every 2500 miles. The Rotella is moly free, and will almost certainly have more zinc and phosphorous than the Motul made stuff Kawasaki is ripping you on.

Best of luck.

Dan

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuel tanker man:


Motorcycle oil is--for the most part--a HUGE RIP-OFF.

They'll tell you a bunch of tripe about "specially balanced additive packages" and such.

---

Agreed, buy a good HDEO and glue on a picture of amotorcyle you insist oil with a picture of a motorcycle on it.

I'm big fan of synthetic oil but didn't use it in my wet clutch MC because I changed the oil frequently because of the crud a wet clutch puts in the oil. Synthetic doesn't help with that.

 

[Chris142]

I have used that same kawasaki/Motul oil and was very pleased with the shifting I had.
But once the ATV began to use oil it really drank the Motul so I switched over to 15w-40 Rotella and I've never added any oil since

Last Wednesday I brought home a brand new Honda ATV and while they were prepping it I bought 2 qts of Motul dino to do the 1st oil change with.

 

[Bagger_Matt]

You pay for the name with M/C oil. Harley syn3 is $8 a qt. I use it because I get it for free. If I had to pay I'd use Havoline 20w50 based on the UOA info Tankerman has to back it up!

 

[Gary in Sandy Eggo]

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
Motorcycle oil is--for the most part--a HUGE RIP-OFF. . . . They'll tell you a bunch of tripe about "specially balanced additive packages" and such. . . . And they'll likely have a little more zinc and phosphorous than passenger car motor oils.

---

What Tanker Man said. Regarding the possibility of extra zinc or phosphorous, if it gets to the point where those elements would come into play, you're using too "light" an oil to start with. I know my Intruder 1400 specifies 10W-40, but I'd never run 10W-anything in a big air-cooled engine.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
I used regular Havoline 20W50 dino oil. If I do say so myself, my wear metal results literally trounce the numbers being posted by folks who have used other oils in the HD big twin engine--including synthetics. So car oils can do a great job in motorcycles.

---

This goes back to your first statement. There's very little difference between car and motorcycle oils.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
You really don't need a synthetic oil in your motorcycle--unless you plan on severely over-heating it. In that case, the syn may prevent oil from baking into sludge. But even then, the newer dino oils are extremely robust, and your engine would likely be toast long before any of the group II and II+ dinos baked into sludge.

---

If you're going to be running hot enough to warrant a higher flashpoint synthetic, you're probably just as well off or better off using SAE-50 aircraft oil. Single-weight (radial engine) aircraft oil is about as robust an oil as you can get. Unfortunately, it doesn't have a lot of corrosion additives, so it needs to be changed frequently if you do use it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
I'd use Shell dino Rotella, 15W40 and change it every 2500 miles. The Rotella is moly free, and will almost certainly have more zinc and phosphorous than the Motul made stuff Kawasaki is ripping you on.

---

Good choice. Since I live in a very mild climate area, and I never ride when the temperature's below 60F or above 85F, I've elected to use Pennzoil SAE-40 which I buy for less than $1.00 per quart on sale. The flashpoint for Havoline looks even better yet, I'm going to look for it and start running it. I don't worry about VI improving polymer breakdown. No polymers to break down. The viscosity I start with is the viscosity I end up with 5000 miles later at the next oil change.

On top of that, I've got more oil between moving parts and less non-lubricating polymers taking up space. Since I'm fairly gently with the engine most of the time, my oil's almost as clear when I change it as it was when I put it in 5000 miles earlier. Oil consumption in 5000 miles is less than 1/8" on the dipstick over that number of miles.

P.S. - I run SAE-30 in my Grand Prix. Not 5W-30 or 10W-30 (but, I have weather that allows me to do this, and I'm ALWAYS easy on the engine for the first five minutes of operation, just like my motorycyle). I run it for approximately 7000 miles between oil changes, and it's down less than 1/2 a quart over that distance and the car has 110,000+ miles on it.

Regards, Gary in Sandy Eggo

 

[Blake Sobiloff]

****, while I agree with your observation of the different operating conditions, I gotta disagree with your conclusions.

Extensive experience, both here and elsewhere, has shown that people get excellent results when using certain automotive oils in their motorcycles--primarily Mobil 1 15W-50, Shell Rotella T (both the 5W-40 and 15W-40), and Fuel Tanker Man's Havoline.

Mechanically, motorcycle engines benefit from the increased EP additives present in HDEOs, and from the non-EC formulations of the 50-weights. These PCMOs and HDEOs are very similar to the motorcycle-specific oils you seem to be advocating. The only meaningful difference is that the motorcycle-specific oils are much more expensive.

I guess it comes down to a definition of "best." To me, my definition of "best" is the oil I can run the longest before having to change it out because it is depleted/contaminated/out of spec, and that isn't outrageously priced (the miles per dollar ratio). From what I've read, the miles per dollar ratio of the oils I mention above are superior to the ratio achieved by the motorcycle-specific oils.

 

[k1xv]

Why do some motorcycles cost as much as cars???

I have been riding for 40 years since my first Norton twin. For the last 25 years I have been using HDEO oil, mostly 15w-40 Rotella, in my Ducati and old BMW twin. You would never catch me paying $10 a quart for those dealer oils.

 

[Dick in Falls Church]

Is there a difference between conditions?

1 Operational Speed. Motorcycles tend to operate at engine speeds significantly higher than automotives. This places higher stress on engine components, and subjects theoils to higher loading and shear factors. Elevated rpms also promote foaming.

2. Compression Ratios. Motorcycles generally have higer compression ratios. Higher demands on the oil to prevent wear, and the usually higher operating temperatures promote thermal degradation of the oil--reducing life expectancy and increasing formulation of deposits.

3. Horsepower/Displacement. Motorcycle engines generally produce twice the horsepower per cc of displaceent. Again the oil is subjected to higer levels of stress.

Variable Engine Cooling: Many motorcycles are air-cooled or use a combination of air/oil cooling. Effective--but subject to greater fluctuations, especially when in stop-and-go traffic. Elevated operating temps cause oils to thin, and also romote oxidation.

Multiple Lubrication Function: Motorcycles with a common sump for both engine and transmission requires lubricants which can meet both needs, and (often) function in a friction clutch.

Further, autos are generally operated daily or very often. Motorcycles can be, but more often are run sporadically and/or seasonally. Periods of inactivity can result in rust and acid corrosivity if the oil is not properly formulated.

Can you run an automotive oil in a motorcycle?
Certainly. Would that be the best choice?
Probably not.

 

[Killer-B]

quote:

---

Why is motorcycle oil so expensive?

---

Because SOME-people will gladly pay the high price.

Is it for piece-of-mind? maybe.

Is it just ignorance? maybe.

Will/do I pay the added price tag for "motorcycle oil"? No.

My .02 cents

 

[Hootbro]

quote:

---

Originally posted by k1xv:
Why do some motorcycles cost as much as cars???

I have been riding for 40 years since my first Norton twin. For the last 25 years I have been using HDEO oil, mostly 15w-40 Rotella, in my Ducati and old BMW twin. You would never catch me paying $10 a quart for those dealer oils.

---

For this explanation, I am gonna exclude Harleys which are an enigma to any analogy when explaing the cost of motorcycles.

High cost of motorcycles when compared to cars can be explained in a few ways. First of all, motorcycles sell less as a percentage when compared to cars. Especially with the Japanses brands be highly competitive with each other, models can change in about every 2-3 years and even less with the sport bikes. This makes developement cost having to be constantly spread out over a per unit cost that does not compare in numbers to cars. Second, the value of the dollar to overseas brands has not helped. Lastly, liabilty is more expensive with motorcycles. Every idiot parent that goes out and buys their 16 year old son a 1000cc plus sport bike and wonders why their son dies, then sues the **** out of these companies. While most will not win, the cost of settlements and lawyers fees adds to the price we all pay.

Hootbro

 

[sands]

quote:

---

In truth, most 'cycle oils simply lack moly (which has been blamed, perhaps unjustifiably, for causing wet clutches to slip). And they'll likely have a little more zinc and phosphorous than passenger car motor oils.

---

This isn't always the case..When comparing dino's there are car oils and HDEO's that have more robust additive packages than some MC specific oils....It depends which oils you're comparing...I'd love t see a VOA of GN4 or Kawichem...IMHO a person would be better off with regular Chevron or Havoline.

Also, there are synthetic car oils that have more antiwear additives than some MC specific dinos and MC specific synthetics.

M1 MX4T and M1 Vtwin oil have lots of antiwear additives...But is it enough to really make a difference if you have 1300 ppm of zddp or 1800 ? Does that make it worth $3 or $4 per qurt more ? No way.

 

[sands]

quote:

---

Is there a difference between conditions?

1 Operational Speed. Motorcycles tend to operate at engine speeds significantly higher than automotives. This places higher stress on engine components, and subjects theoils to higher loading and shear factors. Elevated rpms also promote foaming.

2. Compression Ratios. Motorcycles generally have higer compression ratios. Higher demands on the oil to prevent wear, and the usually higher operating temperatures promote thermal degradation of the oil--reducing life expectancy and increasing formulation of deposits.

3. Horsepower/Displacement. Motorcycle engines generally produce twice the horsepower per cc of displaceent. Again the oil is subjected to higer levels of stress.

Variable Engine Cooling: Many motorcycles are air-cooled or use a combination of air/oil cooling. Effective--but subject to greater fluctuations, especially when in stop-and-go traffic. Elevated operating temps cause oils to thin, and also romote oxidation.

Multiple Lubrication Function: Motorcycles with a common sump for both engine and transmission requires lubricants which can meet both needs, and (often) function in a friction clutch.

Further, autos are generally operated daily or very often. Motorcycles can be, but more often are run sporadically and/or seasonally. Periods of inactivity can result in rust and acid corrosivity if the oil is not properly formulated.

Can you run an automotive oil in a motorcycle?
Certainly. Would that be the best choice?
Probably not.

---

Is there a difference in conditions?

Of course...That's obvious and can be proven as a fact...


Are MC specific oils more capable of protecting the engine under these conditions ?

This hasn't been proven although it is the CLAIM that MC specific oil marketers make...

All it takes is a simple VOA to validate their claims...It would be very funny if it became law to display a VOA on the bottles.

Thanks to the VOA's on this website it's no big surprise that many won't pay the bloated prices for these MC oils.

I guess what it boils down to is what you choose to believe.

Are you going to believe what an MC oil marketer says whos job function is to convince you to pay over inflated prices for their oil ? Surely they wouldn't pull any trick to get your money would they ?

Or would you believe the raw data from a VOA ? A VOA whos data favors no brand and who's job is to display exactly what is in the oil...

There are some MC specific oils that have the goods...BUT they are few...For the most part there is little difference...

Look at the VOA's and take your pick...But just be informed that there are many car oils selling for under $2 per quart that are superior to some MC specific oils...

It's a case by case basis...

 

[anon12]

Motorcycle parts are usually 2 to 3 times as expensive as the equivalent parts for an automobile. I paid $40.00 for a rebuild kit for the master cylinder on my Suzuki. Evidently the same thinking applies to motorcycle oil purchased at the local dealer

 

[Shannow]

When I go out to buy underwear, I get a 6 pack of branded stuff for $10-12. My better half has to pay the same amount for 1, sometimes two pairs.

Put "baby" in front of any itme of clothing, and despite the fact that there's a fair amount less seams and acreage, they cost more than grownup stuff.

It's pricing to what the market will bear.

 

[Baveux]

The dealership at least here in Quebec makes me laugh with their exotic oil ...Motul, Ipponne and what else ? Forget Castrol, Valvoline and other domestic oil you seldom see them in their stores.

What makes the peoples beleive that they are superior product ?? Their origin ? Same goes with the baby M.B and BMW, they buy that for the names, not realizing that their super dooper baby is only a taxi cab in europe, marketing man marketing:-(

 

[Huhwhye]

Shannow hit the nail on the head.

It's expensive because you agreed to pay for it.