Anybody have any idea what this new stuff is from Harley? It's supposed to be used for transmissions and primary lubrication. It has to be better than the old sport trans fluid, I'm wondering if it's closer to a 75-90 gear lube than in the past. Any analysis done on it?
New Harley Davidson Formula +
- Thread starter blueglide88
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I had heard that the Syn3 was leaving a lot to be desired in the tranny lubing department. Some folks complained of sloppy shifting, and others complained of transmissions failing while the Syn3 was the lube (which doesn't necessarily mean it was the Syn3 oil, but nonetheless does nothing to vindicate that oil in that role).
Perhaps HD is going to crawfish out of advocating Syn3 for "all three" by coming out with something "even better."
I've been 100 percent pleased with Mobil 1 75W90 in my tranny. It's easy to find, and it's not as expensive as the HD Syn3 stuff. Plus, the Mobil 1 has given me the best shifting my bike has ever done.
The primary is pretty easy to please. I've used Mobil 1 Redcap 15W50, Shell Rotella 15W40, and the standard HD Primary Chaincase Lubricant stuff. Some guys use transmission fluid with good results, and others just use a cheap 10W40 motor oil. All the primary lube has to do is cool the clutch, lube the chain and cogs, and that's about it. Just stay away from anything with more than 100 ppm of moly and you'll be fine there. Some folks have concluded that the moly in current motor oil formulations won't cause a clutch to slip, but I'd be leery; moly is supposed to be "slippery."
Dan
Perhaps HD is going to crawfish out of advocating Syn3 for "all three" by coming out with something "even better."
I've been 100 percent pleased with Mobil 1 75W90 in my tranny. It's easy to find, and it's not as expensive as the HD Syn3 stuff. Plus, the Mobil 1 has given me the best shifting my bike has ever done.
The primary is pretty easy to please. I've used Mobil 1 Redcap 15W50, Shell Rotella 15W40, and the standard HD Primary Chaincase Lubricant stuff. Some guys use transmission fluid with good results, and others just use a cheap 10W40 motor oil. All the primary lube has to do is cool the clutch, lube the chain and cogs, and that's about it. Just stay away from anything with more than 100 ppm of moly and you'll be fine there. Some folks have concluded that the moly in current motor oil formulations won't cause a clutch to slip, but I'd be leery; moly is supposed to be "slippery."
Dan
The only thing that is a sure bet...
"If it has the Harley Davidson name on it, its will be priced at least 75% higher than it should be..."
just an observation...imho, ymmv
darrell
sin city
"If it has the Harley Davidson name on it, its will be priced at least 75% higher than it should be..."
just an observation...imho, ymmv
darrell
sin city
So we know it bears no API other standard certification?
If it has a bad smell its an indication it may have an EP additive with sulfur in it.
I'm betting it's along the lines of:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/NAUSE2CVLMOMobiltrans_SHC_50.asp
in other words, an API GL-4/MT-1 oil.
.
Hey, its CERTIFIED by harley davidson...for the yuppie bikers, that is all the certification it needs!!!!
just imho, ymmv
darrell
sin city
Haven't used Formula+ yet... just picked up a couple quarts @ $5.95 qt. Info from back of container:
Formula+
Transmission and Primary Chaincase Lubricant
Developed with a Proprietary mineral basestock formula, Test-Certified by Harley-Davidson Motor Company.
Formulated to provide lubricity for the anti-wear requirements of transmission gears.
Formulated to maintain the coefficient of friction for proper clutch operation and provide adequate lubrication to the primary chain drive.
NOT FOR USE IN THE CRANKCASE AS A MOTOR OIL
Approved by Harley-Davidson for use in all stages of transmission and primary chaincase life. Refer to H-D Owner's Manual for recommended maintenance service intervals. Drain and properly dispose of fluids prior to addition of Formula+ Lubricant.
(rest of info on bottle deals with cautions and marketing)
Formula+
Transmission and Primary Chaincase Lubricant
Developed with a Proprietary mineral basestock formula, Test-Certified by Harley-Davidson Motor Company.
Formulated to provide lubricity for the anti-wear requirements of transmission gears.
Formulated to maintain the coefficient of friction for proper clutch operation and provide adequate lubrication to the primary chain drive.
NOT FOR USE IN THE CRANKCASE AS A MOTOR OIL
Approved by Harley-Davidson for use in all stages of transmission and primary chaincase life. Refer to H-D Owner's Manual for recommended maintenance service intervals. Drain and properly dispose of fluids prior to addition of Formula+ Lubricant.
(rest of info on bottle deals with cautions and marketing)
Bought a 2005 FLHT recently. At the 1000 mi service had SYN3 in all three holes. I am wondering if when the the next trans. service is due at 5000 mi if I should use the Formula + in the trans. and primary. Or would the old Harley trans. lube be better? I have the 10,000 mi service pkg. with Harley.
Try Mobil 1 75W90 (full synthetic) transmission lube... It's easy to find, and under 8 bucks a quart.
I don't think synthetic is necessary--or, necessarily even wise--in the engine. But the gear gnashing environment of a transmission can make good use of a synthetic based oil. You can run the Mobil 1 75W90 5000 miles if you wish, and it will hold up nicely for that drain interval.
Since the HD engine is susceptible to fuel diluting the oil, and the engine oil must also endure other hardships such as accumulating soot, water, etc., I continue to believe that anyone running a Harley Davidson engine more than 2500 miles before changing out the engine oil is not acting in the best interests of his engine.
Harley Davidson now recommends a 2500 mile OCI--even with their Syn3 stuff. While it might be argued that HD is simply profiteering by calling for shorter oil drains, I think the condition of the engine oil at 2500 miles in the UOAs we've got on file here, it's a better bet that Harley Davidson has discovered that shorter oil drains are truly what's best for the engine.
As my own UOAs have shown, a good dino 20W50 in a short drain (2500 miles or less) is a hard regimen to beat.
Dan
I don't think synthetic is necessary--or, necessarily even wise--in the engine. But the gear gnashing environment of a transmission can make good use of a synthetic based oil. You can run the Mobil 1 75W90 5000 miles if you wish, and it will hold up nicely for that drain interval.
Since the HD engine is susceptible to fuel diluting the oil, and the engine oil must also endure other hardships such as accumulating soot, water, etc., I continue to believe that anyone running a Harley Davidson engine more than 2500 miles before changing out the engine oil is not acting in the best interests of his engine.
Harley Davidson now recommends a 2500 mile OCI--even with their Syn3 stuff. While it might be argued that HD is simply profiteering by calling for shorter oil drains, I think the condition of the engine oil at 2500 miles in the UOAs we've got on file here, it's a better bet that Harley Davidson has discovered that shorter oil drains are truly what's best for the engine.
As my own UOAs have shown, a good dino 20W50 in a short drain (2500 miles or less) is a hard regimen to beat.
Dan
Harley doesn't tell us much about the 360 oils. Citgo now makes that oil (it used to be Sunoco until a year or two ago) but there isn't much data as to what group the base is.
I would want to see some UOAs on the new Harley 360 stuff before I ran it in 100+ degree weather. It would probably do fine--but I don't know for sure.
If you're buying your own oil, and want to run dino oil, it's a "no brainer." Havoline 20W50 which will remain SL rated for some time to come (according to their tech) is what to use.
Dan
I would want to see some UOAs on the new Harley 360 stuff before I ran it in 100+ degree weather. It would probably do fine--but I don't know for sure.
If you're buying your own oil, and want to run dino oil, it's a "no brainer." Havoline 20W50 which will remain SL rated for some time to come (according to their tech) is what to use.
Dan
I used the syn3 due to the heat down here. I'm gonna be using the Harley products thru the 10,000 mi service package, as the dealer does all the service. I am a fan of regular oil changes. Do you think that I would have just as good of protection with the 360 as with syn3 at 2500 mi service intervals?
What do you guys think about putting a couple of ozs of VSOT in the trans??
Harley does not call for 2,500 mile oci's, thats a dealer recommendation. The service manual for 05 and 06 still calls for the first service at 1,000 miles then 5,000 miles after that. The dealer I work at just got some literature on the new + tranny fluids that stated in testing that fluid was in use for up to 10k oci in primary and trans. Now they dont say its ok to use it for that long but I think it is a good product and comes factory fill on ALL 2006 Harley Davidsons.
Thanks Superglide. I didn't know what the owner's manuals for the new bikes said. My '94 says 5K oil changes too...
I guess the dealers make more money on the shorter OCIs, and that may be part of the reason they recommend the 2500 mile drains.
But I think that judging from the condition of many oils we review at 2000 to 2500 miles in these engines, it would be best to change the oil at 2500, or maybe 3000 miles max.
Harley probably doesn't want their engines to last more than about 50,000 miles before needing a rebuild (in which case most folks would just trade the bike in) so the 5000 mile drain probably suits that life cycle.
There are two Evolution engined bikes in the Milwaukee museum which have been documented to have gone over 400,000 miles without a rebuild. One of the guys--Dave Willet--lives about 75 miles from me, in High Point, NC. HD gave him a new bike in exchange for his '87 Tour Glide with about 420K on the clock. He used regular HD 20W50 dino oil at 2500 mile OCIs to achieve this mileage figure. The other guy, from the Pacific Northwest (can't remember his name), also used the Harley dino 20W50 on 2500 mile OCIs, and that bike ran more than 460,000 miles. He, too, received a new bike from Harley Davidson in exchange for that one. There was an article in American Iron about these two bikes about three or four years ago. Dave Willet had over 200,000 miles on his Twin Cam bike (the one Harley gave him for the Tour Glide) at the time the article was written. He was still using HD 360, and changing at 2500 miles--not surprisingly.
So I think the 2500 mile dino oil drains have set the bar...
Dan
I guess the dealers make more money on the shorter OCIs, and that may be part of the reason they recommend the 2500 mile drains.
But I think that judging from the condition of many oils we review at 2000 to 2500 miles in these engines, it would be best to change the oil at 2500, or maybe 3000 miles max.
Harley probably doesn't want their engines to last more than about 50,000 miles before needing a rebuild (in which case most folks would just trade the bike in) so the 5000 mile drain probably suits that life cycle.
There are two Evolution engined bikes in the Milwaukee museum which have been documented to have gone over 400,000 miles without a rebuild. One of the guys--Dave Willet--lives about 75 miles from me, in High Point, NC. HD gave him a new bike in exchange for his '87 Tour Glide with about 420K on the clock. He used regular HD 20W50 dino oil at 2500 mile OCIs to achieve this mileage figure. The other guy, from the Pacific Northwest (can't remember his name), also used the Harley dino 20W50 on 2500 mile OCIs, and that bike ran more than 460,000 miles. He, too, received a new bike from Harley Davidson in exchange for that one. There was an article in American Iron about these two bikes about three or four years ago. Dave Willet had over 200,000 miles on his Twin Cam bike (the one Harley gave him for the Tour Glide) at the time the article was written. He was still using HD 360, and changing at 2500 miles--not surprisingly.
So I think the 2500 mile dino oil drains have set the bar...
Dan
Dan, I agree. 5k oci's in an air cooled bike is very hard on oil. The oil has a better chance to do its job with a 2,500 mile oci.
"What do you guys think about putting a couple of ozs of VSOT in the trans??"
Ok...I did it..2 ozs...the bike stops better now....
Ok...I did it..2 ozs...the bike stops better now....
Im not sure Skunky. Im not up to date on that product. Is it like the old STP thick stuff?
Harley trans fluid does shear down pretty fast but we dont see many trans problems. Lately the only trans complaints I've seen are noise in 6 speed trans in 4th and 6th gears.
Harley trans fluid does shear down pretty fast but we dont see many trans problems. Lately the only trans complaints I've seen are noise in 6 speed trans in 4th and 6th gears.
NO ..it's not like STP..it's thinner like a 40 wt...I was just wondering about the compatability with the bushings in the trans..went for a 300mi ride today ..the gears did seem to move up and down really smooth..they slipped into each gear without any effort..was just wondering..
Have 1/2 a bottle along with energy conserving oil in a XR as part of a "how much moly can it take" experiment. Got 3 races on it and no slippy slippy. Motors getting tired and I'll tear it down anyway so why not. No change in shifting or clutch peformance
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