I have a 04 BMW R1150RT and would like some opinions on when to switch to full synthetic oil. I have talked to 3 different Dealers and they all said to wait at least to 18k before switching to synthetic. One dealer even said to wait till 30k. These bikes have a thirst for oil. Some of these bikes consume as much as 1qt per 1k miles. Mine never has used any oil at all, even before the 600mi service. I now have 2600mi on this oil and filter and still have used no oil what so ever. I plan on using Mobil 1 15w50 and a BMW filter. Since I have no oil consumption in 2600mi, what do think? Summer is here and this bike runs hot. Out of 10 bars on the oil temp. gauge, At 75 mph with outside temps in the 95deg. range, It usually runs at least with 7 bars, 8 bars in traffic. I don't know what the temp.is relating to the bars, but I do know it's pretty hot. 9 bars is in the danger zone. Any thoughts?
When to switch to synthetic
- Thread starter Fatboymoe
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I would say go ahead and swith over to Synchetic 15W40 now.
Agreed. If you are not experiencing any oil consumption issues, then go ahead and make the jump. I would use a fifty-weight oil in an aircooled application with high ambient temperatures. If a forty-weight holds up and isn't consumed, then perhaps it is a viable option. A friend of mine has a Buell Ligtning. I put him onto D1 5w-40 which runs well in my FJR. His Buell is consuming it in some pretty high running temperatures. I told him to top off with a synthetic such as M1 15w-50 or their synthetic 20w-50 bike oil. I haven't asked him how it's doing lately.
I have heard that BMW dealers have made some pretty far-fetched predictions on the time-frame for synthetic oil usage. I do not know where they are coming from. I understand that certain oil-heads can take longer than average to break in but I expect that after four thousand kilometres of use your bike had better be broken in by now...
John.
I have heard that BMW dealers have made some pretty far-fetched predictions on the time-frame for synthetic oil usage. I do not know where they are coming from. I understand that certain oil-heads can take longer than average to break in but I expect that after four thousand kilometres of use your bike had better be broken in by now...
John.
Wait until at least 6000 is my answer. I had 3000 on my R1100 and little oil consumtpion, switched to syntehtic and had higher consumption for the next 4000 miles. Than around 7000 on the bike I took a high speed run (over 100mph) down I-10 from exit 331 in Arizona to El paso, about 221 miles with an average speed over 100 mph.
After that. Little to no oil consumption. When I pulled off to get gas in Las Cruces the pipes were glowing red (and this was early March, with the temps in the 50's)
So from 7500 miles to 30,000 miles on my BMW oilhead running Amsoil 10w40 synthetic it would use about 1oz per 1,000 miles. Sometimes a little more sometimes less, but right around there.
So anyhow, going back to my recommendation. Run Good(I repeat GOOD) dino oil for 6,000 miles on the bike. After the first 500 miles of easy riding increase it to running the heck out of it. Those boxers like to be run hard. Then at 6,000 miles go over to synthetic.
If you have been driving like an old far(I know most RT riders do
Ummm, it's an oil cooled bike. With those big beautiful jugs hanging out for all to see.
The R259 oil head actually has 2 oil pumps too. It's a great system that handles heat very well. I used 10w40 year round in El Paso will good results from 22 degrees in January to over 100 in July.
Yes, I am well-aware of that fact. However, I see no practical difference as that cooling design will work the oil hard. I would expect that it likely is the most stressful design on the oil... n'est-ce pas?
John.
John.
Msparks,
I ride this bike hard. I found the rev-limiter the first day I had it and bounce it off the limiter when riding in the mountains. I don't baby my vehicles, even when new. I don't abuse them, but I run them hard from the start. The oil that is in it now is BMW(Golden Spectro)dino 20w50. I guess I will just wait till 5k before changing over to Mobil 1. The one thing I find hard to believe is the 6k OCI on these bikes. I think this will be my first vehicle doing a UOA. First, with 3k on dino oil, then 3k with Mobil 1 15w50.
Thanks to all for your input.
I ride this bike hard. I found the rev-limiter the first day I had it and bounce it off the limiter when riding in the mountains. I don't baby my vehicles, even when new. I don't abuse them, but I run them hard from the start. The oil that is in it now is BMW(Golden Spectro)dino 20w50. I guess I will just wait till 5k before changing over to Mobil 1. The one thing I find hard to believe is the 6k OCI on these bikes. I think this will be my first vehicle doing a UOA. First, with 3k on dino oil, then 3k with Mobil 1 15w50.
Thanks to all for your input.
Your not burning oil , I say go
I switched to Full MC syn at 300 miles full redline runs, over 30,000 now never burned oil and still doesn't.
I switched to Full MC syn at 300 miles full redline runs, over 30,000 now never burned oil and still doesn't.
You're rings were probably seated well before you got to 300 miles with the hard riding...It's probably the best thing you could've done which is contrary to what most people think...
Go ahead and switch..you're good to go and the lack of oil consumption from early on is a very good sign for your bike...
Go ahead and switch..you're good to go and the lack of oil consumption from early on is a very good sign for your bike...
I have a problem with all this synthetic/non-synthetic hoopla at break-in.
When we rebuild an engine, or have a new engine, isn't the break-in process to let the rings seat properly in the jug? And if this is so, isn't there wear taking place between the hatchings in the cylinder and the face of the rings.
And if this happens, it shouldn't matter if we are using a dino oil or a synthetic, as the fluid film of the oil itself is not what is taking care of the lubrication at the ring/cylinder wall. It would be boundery lubrication that is of concern in this case, and not the fluid film of the oil.
No oil is going to lubricate a mismatch of parts like that of new rings and jug hatchings. That is only going to be effected by the add pack in the oils.
And if this is the case, then the add pack of whatever oil we choose has much more to do with things than if the carrier is dino or synthetic.
Agreed?
BTW...I think we will find that we get a much better break-in with the least amount of initial wear if we simply put the engine though heating/cooling cycles. Rather than riding the wizz out of the bike right off the bat.
I contend that if I take a brand new engine and heat/cool the motor say 5 times, I will have a much better seat and never leave the driveway, than the guy who mounts up and runs the snot out of it. He is far more likely to see oil consumption from his engine than I will with mine, as I only had a minimum of metal taken away during breakin. His break-in procedure probably took more meat off before things got seated, or "worn in" properly.
When we rebuild an engine, or have a new engine, isn't the break-in process to let the rings seat properly in the jug? And if this is so, isn't there wear taking place between the hatchings in the cylinder and the face of the rings.
And if this happens, it shouldn't matter if we are using a dino oil or a synthetic, as the fluid film of the oil itself is not what is taking care of the lubrication at the ring/cylinder wall. It would be boundery lubrication that is of concern in this case, and not the fluid film of the oil.
No oil is going to lubricate a mismatch of parts like that of new rings and jug hatchings. That is only going to be effected by the add pack in the oils.
And if this is the case, then the add pack of whatever oil we choose has much more to do with things than if the carrier is dino or synthetic.
Agreed?
BTW...I think we will find that we get a much better break-in with the least amount of initial wear if we simply put the engine though heating/cooling cycles. Rather than riding the wizz out of the bike right off the bat.
I contend that if I take a brand new engine and heat/cool the motor say 5 times, I will have a much better seat and never leave the driveway, than the guy who mounts up and runs the snot out of it. He is far more likely to see oil consumption from his engine than I will with mine, as I only had a minimum of metal taken away during breakin. His break-in procedure probably took more meat off before things got seated, or "worn in" properly.
Jaybird I agree about the syn vs non syn, I think it was mostly a marketing myth. Break-in is basically taking off any high spots. It's usually better to "shear" them then to slowly "polish" them away. Polished they become smooth and have a hard time wearing away. This is where the hard break-in is usally better, to a point. The point is where the high friction on the high spots makes them hot enough to sort of melt and fold over instaed of shearing clean. This is why continuios hard running isn't the best idea. Cycling "on" and off the throttle and slowly increasing the intensity of the "on time" is a prefered method, this allows some cooling so the melt and smear won't happen.
It take a certain amount of ring against the bore pressure to get the shear. modern big cc bikes have so much power that it is often difficult to achieve this kind of pressure at sane speeds, thus many take quite some time before they quit sipping oil. IT takes high gas pressure behind the ring and also mostly it tkes accelaration of the piston. Modern rings have a bevel cut on there top flat that cause a mechanical push outward agaist the bore as the ring is levered against the ring groove on downstroke. In order to push the ring hard against the bore (to get the desired shear) there need to be a fair amount of piston acceleration.
Purely heat cycling the engine without much stress on it won't give the same desired results, although it's a good way to check for leaks and to get things "set" and ready for retorque if needed etc.
It take a certain amount of ring against the bore pressure to get the shear. modern big cc bikes have so much power that it is often difficult to achieve this kind of pressure at sane speeds, thus many take quite some time before they quit sipping oil. IT takes high gas pressure behind the ring and also mostly it tkes accelaration of the piston. Modern rings have a bevel cut on there top flat that cause a mechanical push outward agaist the bore as the ring is levered against the ring groove on downstroke. In order to push the ring hard against the bore (to get the desired shear) there need to be a fair amount of piston acceleration.
Purely heat cycling the engine without much stress on it won't give the same desired results, although it's a good way to check for leaks and to get things "set" and ready for retorque if needed etc.
Jaybird,
I agree with you on the heat cycling. When I bored and stroked my 03 Fatboy, I had the bores set at .0006 on the recomendation of my machinist. He also made me heat cycle the engine at least 6 times before riding it, because with that tight of clearence, my normal break-in procedure would not work. My BMW, on the other hand, was a production bike with production tolerences. When I bought the bike it already had 15 miles on it. I am sure that the bike was pre-run at the factory before shipment, and probably many times at the dealer before I bought it. Comparing a new vehicle to a newly rebuilt vehicle is camparing apples to oranges. Rebuilding engines for performance require special attention to break-in procedures. Only the builder and the machinist should make these decisions. No blanket statement would cover all start-ups of rebuilt performance engines. I just think that factory new vehicles are basically already broken in and require less restraint than newly rebuilt, performance engines.
I agree with you on the heat cycling. When I bored and stroked my 03 Fatboy, I had the bores set at .0006 on the recomendation of my machinist. He also made me heat cycle the engine at least 6 times before riding it, because with that tight of clearence, my normal break-in procedure would not work. My BMW, on the other hand, was a production bike with production tolerences. When I bought the bike it already had 15 miles on it. I am sure that the bike was pre-run at the factory before shipment, and probably many times at the dealer before I bought it. Comparing a new vehicle to a newly rebuilt vehicle is camparing apples to oranges. Rebuilding engines for performance require special attention to break-in procedures. Only the builder and the machinist should make these decisions. No blanket statement would cover all start-ups of rebuilt performance engines. I just think that factory new vehicles are basically already broken in and require less restraint than newly rebuilt, performance engines.
The ideal way I've found (from MX bikes to sportbikes) is a combination of both...Using short duration ring loading combined with a complete cool down period to reduce heat build up...Your goal is to seat the rings and avoid excessive heat buildup.
That's how we do it on race engines for max performance and reliability...
Alot of people mistake this for abusing a bike and just hopping on a new bike half-brained and bouncing it on the rev limiter to no avail...NO NO NO.
Target RPM's are predetermined...After a complete warmup let the revs climb to the upper range very briefly and as soon as you reach a target RPM shut off the throttle completely...A few runs of that and shut off the bike for a cool down phase. Gives you enough gas pressure to seat rings and the short duration helps you avoid excessive heat on your new motor.
The worse thing for a new motor is to lug it and it's also happens to be the most common mistake...I've seen some manuals state for the operator to stay under 4,000 RPM for 1,000 miles or so...The poor guy thinking he's doing the best thing for his new motor clicks it in 6th gear at 3,800 rpm just so he can keep up with the pace of traffic.
Yikes! Seriously, alot of people do this and have no major issues other than slightly lower performance and consumption issues and as long as the consumtion is watched their motor will do fine...But this breakin procedure will increase the likelyhood of later engine trouble from excessive blowby and contaminated engine oil.
Well go to the BMW Sport Touring site. Do a search for oil analysis. There are at least 1/2 dozen at 6,000 even on dino oil. There are a couple on there including myself with over 9000 on synthetic. And even a 2 over 12,000 with synthetic.
The Oil head is really easy on oil, once you get past the breakin consumption.
First off BMW cylinders are different then other's. They have a special coating that takes longer to break in.
When I added synthetic at 3000 on my BMW, the dealer said you should wait, but how can I sell oil if I'm not using it. So I didn't listen and went synthetic.
Myself along with many others that I've talked to have higher oil consumption for the first 7000-1000 miles.
Believe me, I would love to sell someone synthetic oil for their BMW right off the bat. I'm just giving my personal experience and suggesting that they wait a couple of oil change.
Secondly, I do not recommend anyone running the snot out of a bike or car for that matter right off the bat. I would go through the heat cycles for the first 500 miles at least. Then progressively put more and more of a load on the engine as well as taking it to higher RPM's. Does this mean holding it at Redline for hours on end? No but taking up there and then back down for brief periods is okay.
But hey what do I know, 30K on my BMW and virtually no usage. 80+K on my Buddies BMW(K1200RS) and no Usage. 40K on one of my customers BMW with 2000RT and no usage.
When I added synthetic at 3000 on my BMW, the dealer said you should wait, but how can I sell oil if I'm not using it. So I didn't listen and went synthetic.
Myself along with many others that I've talked to have higher oil consumption for the first 7000-1000 miles.
Believe me, I would love to sell someone synthetic oil for their BMW right off the bat. I'm just giving my personal experience and suggesting that they wait a couple of oil change.
Secondly, I do not recommend anyone running the snot out of a bike or car for that matter right off the bat. I would go through the heat cycles for the first 500 miles at least. Then progressively put more and more of a load on the engine as well as taking it to higher RPM's. Does this mean holding it at Redline for hours on end? No but taking up there and then back down for brief periods is okay.
But hey what do I know, 30K on my BMW and virtually no usage. 80+K on my Buddies BMW(K1200RS) and no Usage. 40K on one of my customers BMW with 2000RT and no usage.
BMW's use nikasil coatings, dont they?
As Jaybird said all the hoopla around synthetic use during breakin is non sense.
I heat cycle mine a few times then take it out and alternate between very high load situations and low load situations. You do need some load to break in the motor or glazing becomes a issue.
As Jaybird said all the hoopla around synthetic use during breakin is non sense.
I heat cycle mine a few times then take it out and alternate between very high load situations and low load situations. You do need some load to break in the motor or glazing becomes a issue.
Initial break-in isn't so much for piston rings but all the bearings in an engine. I'd rather have the synthetic for new bearings than dino.
The piston rings are seated after 100 miles if it's not babied.
We had problems with ring seating using synth. and semi-synth. oil after rebuilds at a shop I worked at.
I talked to a tech at Wiseco and his recommendation was to use cheap dino oil during ring seating. He said 6 or 8 hard pulls through the gears and the rings will be seated.
By hard pulls, he meant a load on the engine and not redline. After that, switch to synth. if you want.
We've used this procedure for years now with no ring seating problems.
FWIW, the bikes I've seen with oil comsumption issues were the ones that were babied during break-in.
Fatboymoe, you can switch at any time. You broke yours in like I break mine in. I use dino for the first 500 then switch to synthetic. My Kaw has nikasil plated cylinders also. It hasn't used a drop of oil in 8,000 miles.
The piston rings are seated after 100 miles if it's not babied.
We had problems with ring seating using synth. and semi-synth. oil after rebuilds at a shop I worked at.
I talked to a tech at Wiseco and his recommendation was to use cheap dino oil during ring seating. He said 6 or 8 hard pulls through the gears and the rings will be seated.
By hard pulls, he meant a load on the engine and not redline. After that, switch to synth. if you want.
We've used this procedure for years now with no ring seating problems.
FWIW, the bikes I've seen with oil comsumption issues were the ones that were babied during break-in.
Fatboymoe, you can switch at any time. You broke yours in like I break mine in. I use dino for the first 500 then switch to synthetic. My Kaw has nikasil plated cylinders also. It hasn't used a drop of oil in 8,000 miles.
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