dirtbike oil tests

sunruh · Jun 29, 2005

howdy!

i was wondering if there are any other crazed loons out there that have had their oil analyzed in their dirtbike(s) like i have.

i ride/race a 2001 Yamaha YZ250F (think left cylinder only of an R1).

so far i have had Blackstone labs run 11 oil analysis dating clear back to april of 2001.
i also had another analysis center run identical samples twice.

in every instance i have found that the gearbox chews the oil to pieces in short order. i did one test with less than 32 miles on the sample.

oils tested include:
amsoil 20w50 motorcycle spec (01 version)
mobil 1 15w40 (the famous red cap)
castrol gtx 20w50
castrol 20w50 motorcycle spec
valvoline 10w40 motorcycle spec
valvoline vr1 20w50
valvoline vr1 sae50
shell rotella t (dino) 15w40

benjamming · Jun 29, 2005

Can you post these in the UOA section?

nicrfe1370 · Jun 29, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by benjamming:
Can you post these in the UOA section?

Yeah, post those, that would be a great boost in motorcycle knowledge for the boards!

wileyE · Jun 29, 2005

30w Redline race

tom slick · Jun 29, 2005

I'd love to see your results. My bike also seems to chew oil up.

sunruh · Jun 30, 2005

i will gladly post my info.
however, i would first like to know if there is a prefered format (and possibly forum) that such info would/should be posted in.

ah, found it should go in the UOA forum. but, but, but i don't run "gas".

as in pump swill don't touch my carb.

in "most" of my tests, the sus Viscosity is low and so is the flash point. however, a few products showed some very good numbers. the real shocker is what oil products those are.

Mackelroy · Jul 1, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by sunruh:
i added a "few" to the UOA forum.

I checked out your uoa's thanks for posting.

The wear metals you show seem similar to sport bikes that have gone a couple thousand street miles. your UOa's Shows the increased contamination of oil that offroad riding generates.

Although the oil itself shows still to be usuable, it's full of contaminant. To me it shows better to run less expensive oil and change often on the dirt.

But my 2 strokes use to dump every couple rides and it would be full of aluminum microbes.

So what oil have you decided to stick with cause they all seem to contaminate about the same?

My Street Motard I'm running the 20w50 AMS, it seems to do well, I see alot less contaminants in the oil at 2,000 miles than some other oils at 1,000 miles. The heavier weigths seem to shift better also.

sunruh · Jul 1, 2005

i added a "few" to the UOA forum.

sunruh · Jul 1, 2005

no mention of the LOWER than acceptable sus viscosity. hmmmmm.
with the exception of the rotella t and vr1, ALL of the oils that i have tested are BELOW the range that Blackstone expected. essentially, the oil has been ground up, spit out and is sheared to death. in as little as 30 miles!!!

i have poured a LOT of oil through this motor as i change it either every other ride or every ride depending on what/where that ride (race) was. since we have some extreme temps here (106F yesterday) i like the higher viscosity oil (like the vr1 sae50) and naturally i can't run that all year long. i like the 15wXX oils for what we call winter. i have no loyality to brand, just analysis results.

your comment on "cheap but frequent" is something that has been proven time and time again. castrol gtx 20w50 may not be the "best" oil, but at $6.97 for 5qt (almost 3 oil changes worth) bought at wal-mart, it is a price leader. the VR1 at $2.49qt is certainly the viscosity/price leader. i have some RP 20w50 in the mixmaster right now that will be tested and i have 3 other blends lined up as well. would love to try some schaeffers 705 supreme, but the price is

tom slick · Jul 1, 2005

Thanks again for posting. you rarely see this kind of info posted around here.

ktm525 · Jul 3, 2005

I have tried all kind of oils in my dirtbikes. In my current ride KTM 525 I am using Opti-4 but I will go back to plain old Rotella 15W-40 Dino and drain every 2 rides (8 hours).

ktm525 · Jul 5, 2005

Rotella was priced at $12 (Can) for the 4L jug at Crappy Tire. Good oil for a ridiculous low price.

Andrew Hufford · Jul 5, 2005

Hello, new here and this particular post caught my interest. Suprisingly I haven't seen many post here about oil recs on the new generation of MX 4-stroke bikes.

Anyway, I haven't yet educated myself on how to completely decipher the UOA's yet and I'm currently searching for an oil to put in my new '05 CRF450, both engine and trans. I don't have the trans/clutch contamination problem like the Yamaha's due to seperate cavities (not trying to be smart

). The drawback to this is an extremely small volume of oil for the motor. I run an hour meter and the oil gets change anywhere from 3-5hrs. I run leaded fuel as well (VP 110). If you have any input on what's good and/or what to look for I would appreciate it.

Sorry if I'm hijacking the thread, I though this would be a good way to keep it rolling and hopefully we can exchange more great information.

Thanks,
Andrew

Mackelroy · Jul 5, 2005

The drawback to this is an extremely small volume of oil for the motor.********************

IMo, what's the difference between a bike that uses 2 quarts of oil and shares the tranny and engine, versus a bike that seperates 1 quart for each?

I don't think there's that much difference, the engine itself is much easier on the 1 quart of oil thats not being ran through a transmission , so that should be sufficent IMO.

I like the seperated design, it's the way it should be done.

nicrfe1370 · Jul 5, 2005

Sunruh,

Those are some interesting reports you have, thanks for posting! What strikes me is the wide disparity in lead, which seems to follow how long the oil was used in a fairly consistent pattern. The lowest lead, in the singles or teens, were at 30 miles, while the highest lead (600+) was in the Mobil 1 at 200 miles. It's almost as though at 30 miles, the oil is so beat up it can't seal the piston and rings to the cylinder and lets fuel almost pour into the crank case at a rapid rate.

Andrew Hufford · Jul 5, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Mackelroy:
I don't think there's that much difference, the engine itself is much easier on the 1 quart of oil thats not being ran through a transmission , so that should be sufficent IMO.

I like the seperated design, it's the way it should be done.

I agree. Although there is less circulation through "the system" which might lead to less heat transfer, if there was a way to equally compare the two. Not worth it from a contamination standpoint IMHO.

I like the seperate design as well.

quote:

Originally posted by nicrfe1370:
Those are some interesting reports you have, thanks for posting!...It's almost as though at 30 miles, the oil is so beat up it can't seal the piston and rings to the cylinder and lets fuel almost pour into the crank case at a rapid rate.

Yes, Thank you for posting those!

Sunruh, curious as to what fuel you run? Distillation curve? Just wondering if the endpoint is really high leading to poor vaporization and some of the raw fuel is ending up in the crank case.

Seems to be a large problem with these bikes + pump gas (not saying that's what you run) that not too many care to know about (fuel in oil).

sunruh · Jul 6, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by nicrfe1370:
Sunruh,

Those are some interesting reports you have, thanks for posting! What strikes me is the wide disparity in lead, which seems to follow how long the oil was used in a fairly consistent pattern.

you are welcome.

the lead is a direct result of the amount of leaded fuel consumed before the oil was sampled.
all of the UOA's that i show WITH lead are either 100% Howell 002 or a mixture of it with VP Motorsports 103.
Blackstone Labs tells me that the lead (Pb) gets into the oil because the rings SCRAPES it off the cylinder walls after the fuel is burnt. the more fuel you burn, the more lead in the oil.

sunruh · Jul 6, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew Hufford:
Sunruh, curious as to what fuel you run?

i really like the VP Motorsports 103. this is an oxygenated, unleaded fuel. however, it has a LOW 90% temp and will boil off in our summer heat (104F offically here 7/6/05). as do most of the VP fuels. i have found them to be very very good for winter, but not very good in the summer. initial UOA's were done with Howell 002 leaded fuel. this fuel has a much HIGHER 90% distill curve and can easily handle any hot temps in the usa. i run it in the summer

yes, the dual oil cavity is a better design. no real debate there. provided it is dry sump.
however, the extremely small quanity of oil that the honda design employs does not bode well for extended drain intervaults. plus the wet sump leads to wipping the oil into a nice froth via the crank. hopefully the new 06yz450f motor will be dual cavity, yet retain its dry sump.

as far as oils, here is what i would recommend:
new oil (regardless of brand/blend) is vastly better than used oil. even if the used is "supposedly" a better brand/blend.

on your dual cavity design, i would run the highest moly content oil i could find in the engine side and something lower/closer to zero on the clutch side.

my results also show that the transmission is a oil shearing mix master that eats the "high dollar" oil just as easy as it does the cheap stuff.

so what does all of this mean?

the Valvoline VR1 sae50 was clearly the viscosity (anti-shear) king in my tests. at $2.49qt it is low cost as well. the Shell Rotella T was also very very good at keeping viscosity, but starts out thinner. it too is a very low cost oil that can be bought for $9 per 5qt at wallyworld.
in my phone converstations with blackstone labs, they clearly point out that a straight weight will beat a winter blend everytime in these types of situations (ie retaining viscosity). castrol gtx 20w50 has to be metioned as a low cost leader at $6.97 for 5qt at walton's supply shop.

simply put:
find an oil (hopefully straight weight) that works in your ambient temp range and change it OFTEN!!!

Steve

p.s. i have RP in the mix master right now (which will be tested) and have 2 other tests in store for this summer.

dirtbike oil tests

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