Black Moly Goo

[Mackelroy]

I was running some motorcycle 15w50 300v Motul TEST for about A 1000 miles worked okay. I was over in the new oil analysis section and noted it was loaded with moly, extremely high in comparison to most MC oils which have none yet worked okay in the engine.

I had to pull the clutch for other engine related maintenance, and the clutch plates were clean, but there was black moly type goo inside the basket, not real significant but do I really want this stuff in my clutch basket.

Anyway me and motul test is over, very good shifting and MPG , but black goo I do not like. I change oil about every 1000 to 1500 miles so no reason to see such things like this.

I was a little shocked being this is supposed to be a Group 5 oil, and needing that level of moly (600), but the UOA it stand out as pretty significant.

 

[wileyE]

Some clutches are bothered more than others by the moly. Depends on things like friction plate material and texture, spring tension, engine torque at the secondary shaft, vehicle weight just to name a few.

Rotax (Aprilla,BMW,etc) has done a lot of testing and had some intersting comment on the whole thing. In short they feel it's not just moly, but ALL AW additives can be a problem. Since AW adds are a neccesary in good oil they'd like to see in their motors they feel it's up to them to engineer clutches/devices that are not affected by them (I like their attitude) if wet clutches are used.

In short if the motul is working for you I wouldn't dump it early, or throw any out just because VOA shows moly. On my own bikes I can't say that moly has been a problem. I have had a synthetic leave a "glaze" on the metal plates that caused drag.

 

[Mackelroy]

Clutch and shifting action were fine, it's when I removed the basket to do another maintenance procedure I saw the Black moly goo inside the basket in crevises underneath tangs.

In total we're are talking about maybe a teaspoon of goo in the basket.

I just don't like GOO Moly Paste buildup in the engine, even from $13 perquart oil.

[ May 28, 2005, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Mackelroy ]

 

[islip]

What makes you think that this "GOO" is a moly paste? Perhaps you are thinking of molybdenum disulphide which can be a "black moly paste" like compound.The moly in Motul would be organometallic.My guess is the crud that you see is coming from the clutch friction plates.

 

[Mackelroy]

quote:

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Originally posted by islip:
What makes you think that this "GOO" is a moly paste? Perhaps you are thinking of molybdenum disulphide which can be a "black moly paste" like compound.The moly in Motul would be organometallic.My guess is the crud that you see is coming from the clutch friction plates.

---

That sounds about right, and a tea spoon may not be too bad, but over time if more build up developed causing slippage, cloggin lines or filters might be an issue. But I don't tear down my engine frequently enough to keep it cleaned out. I just happened to be in there and discovered the spooge.

Silkolene has vitually the same oil, but they don't install the Moly.

I've opted to ride 20w50 Amsoil through the rest of the summer after flushing out the Motul a few hundered miles of Rotella T Syn.

 

[tom slick]

could it be clutch material?

 

[Mackelroy]

quote:

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Originally posted by tom slick:
could it be clutch material?

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Hello Mr Slick,

It was just a few blops of black paste with no course texture stuck up inside underneath of the tangs in the basket. I didn't see any residue anywhere else other than inside the basket. I've had to make no clutch adjustment and my acuatuation points have been consistant. It was stuck solidly to the basket I had to take my finger to wipe it out it had good adhesion, the plates themselves were very clean. The buildup was sparatically on inside underneath the tangs 1/2 mm in depth on the puddles of the solid Black paste. Just several blops of this substance, even if Fiber residue why would the oil not have cleaned it is kind of my thought epecially since that area is under high consistant agitation.

I also ran the engine for several miles befor this teardown, so it hadn't been sitting, normally ridden every day.

 

[pajim17057]

I thought moly didn't come out of suspention. Could amsoil have been right all along?

 

[tom slick]

quote:

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Just several blops of this substance, even if Fiber residue why would the oil not have cleaned it is kind of my thought epecially since that area is under high consistant agitation.

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along that same idea of agitation then why didn't the moly get washed off? it doesn't take much wear to get noticable oil darkening. is the oil that you used that contains moly colored black out of the bottle? why would only the moly seperate itself out, concentrate itself into goo, then stick in an area that anything else semi-solid would get washed off?
it is either assembly grease or clutch material. I don't think it came from your oil.

 

[qadsan]

On one of the WRF's I've worked on recently, the clutch basket had some very dark colored paste on the inside of the basket. It was a very dark gray color and almost black and this bike never once used an oil with moly in it. The interesting thing about this paste was that some of it was magnetic. If your paste has any hint of being very dark gray to black, you may want to check it with a rare earth magnet which would at least tell you whether some or all of the paste is ferrous or not. The magnetic drain plug on this bike also had a blackish paste on it, which is what prompted me to check the clutch basket.

 

[Mackelroy]

My paste was completely dark black. I really liked this oil after a few hundred miles (excellent clutch and shifting). My bike has over 30,000 miles and with this oil it was an instant 2 to 4 mpg increase. The paste issue made me Quiver though, and If a get any buildup on my oil cooled stator it might not cool enough.

I may be too harsh and try it again, Presently running Amsoil 20w50, outstanding clutch and shifting, but I have given back the MPG increase from the MOly overloaded Motul, and returned to my normal MPG I get with all non moly'd oils

 

[Mackelroy]

Qadson,

Keeping in mind this bike has over 30,000 miles , the magnetic drain plug has always had a little metallic black spooge on it at oil change. This was a diferent type spooge IMO you can even see its metal, minus the fact it's attracted to the magnet, but so fine I consider metal spooge. I attribute the metalic spooge on the drain plug from the gear dogs and such. I'd mostly been running 5w40/10w40/10w50 full mc sythetic type oils, and this spooge doesn't seem to be lessening with age(seems consistant). So now I'm thinking this spooge will enventaully turn into increased tolerances and issues. This the main reason I'm converting over to heavier oils, to see If I can reduce the metalic spooge on the drain plug. 1500 miles the spooge is not enough to cover the tip of a pensil eraser yet it's there consistantly and isn't declining with age(maybe increasing). I've found the heavier oils are much better with low speed shifting in comparison to the thinner oils. With improved shifting drag I expect the magnetic drain plug debri to lessen.

But this isn't the same spooge in the clutch

BTW Too SLick, the Motul is just normal oil color out of the bottle. And you are asking the same question I have even if grease why didn't the Motul clean it. Unless the Motul created it.

[ May 30, 2005, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Mackelroy ]

 

[fuel tanker man]

quote:

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Originally posted by pajim17057:
I thought moly didn't come out of suspention. Could amsoil have been right all along?

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Does Amsoil claim that moly comes out of suspension?

 

[Jaybird]

If it were moly, it would come off easily with the wipe of your finger.

Consider the high temps that the clutch area sees, then consider that oil degredation is temperature sensitive.

Most likely clutch material, but for sure not a moly problem.

 

[Mackelroy]

Originally posted by Jaybird:
[QB] If it were moly, it would come off easily with the wipe of your finger.+++++++++++++++++++


It did wipe out easily, so easily the oil should have cleaned it but didn't , was not severe just something I hadn't seen in my mc clutches before. It was like a silky smooth black sludge

But let face it, this oil has moly levels (600) so high in comparison to most oils, how much is too much and yet some seem not to need any at all and perform just as well.

still wondering why a group 5 $13 per quart synthetic ester needs all that moly anyway. It also left an orange tinge in my exhaust otherwise normally runs very clean.

I'm on my second change of amsoil 20w50 since this time, the orange residue is gone and exhaust is clean again, and the oil seems to hold up better into my change intervals.