Flash Point? How high do you really need?

[Huhwhye]

I am still researching oils for my bike, going to drain and test very soon. So the questions continue.

How high a flash point is really necessary? I was looking at different syn 20w50 mc oils and noticed some variances in flash point. Seems the Mobil stuff has one of the highest. But is that really of any benefit? 519 for Mobil Vtwin over 457 for Amsoil.

 

[Mackelroy]

(How high a flash point is really necessary?)

Hello, that's a good question and if we could rely on the posted data by some of these companies the flash point numbers might be more helpful. But the higher the flash point the less likely of evaporation.

But IMO , just like one manufactures 5 weight oil is much heavier than another companies, yet both are 5 weight. The same with flash points, one company may say 450 degrees , yet another companies 430 degree actually far exceeds the one stated at 450 degrees(go fiqure).

Mobil 1 MC oil , I doubt there's anything more heat tolerant on the market.

 

[rokky]

Flash Point tests can vary 15 degrees F either way with the same oil sample. Its not the most exacting test. I got this tidbit from a chemist in the business.

 

[Huhwhye]

quote:

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if we could rely on the posted data by some of these companies [/QB]

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I noticed that going thru some VOA postings for different oils. There commonly were variances with factory specs.

 

[Huhwhye]

Thanks, good info there.

I am having a tough time choosing. I guess I could try both and have UOA's done on both. But I guess I'm trying to do research here instead of spening $35 x 2 for analysis. I already plan on having the dino oil I'm running tested when it comes out, first oil since buying a used bike, to check it out for overall condition before going to full syn. So theres another $35

On another note. Not all aircooled motors have one cyclinder that runs hotter than the other

 

[Mickey_M]

quote:

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Originally posted by Huhwhye:
I am still researching oils for my bike, going to drain and test very soon. So the questions continue.

How high a flash point is really necessary? I was looking at different syn 20w50 mc oils and noticed some variances in flash point. Seems the Mobil stuff has one of the highest. But is that really of any benefit? 519 for Mobil Vtwin over 457 for Amsoil.

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The flash point, by itself, doesn't mean much. In conjunction with some other information, though, it can be interpreted meaningfully.

Mobil's 20W-50 has a high flash point due to some decisions that were made when it was formulated. Air-cooled engines tend to develop higher peak cylinder and head temperatures than water-cooled, and one cylinder runs hotter than the other.

ExxonMobil chose to completely dispense with VI improvers, which have a lower flash point than the PAO base stocks in this formula, and go with a dumbbell mix of two PAOs to achieve the 20W-50 viscosity. The idea was to achieve maximum heat resistance, avoiding coking and oxidation.

The lack of the VI improver and the choice of additives and blend stocks means this formula is well-suited to Harleys, Victorys, and Yamahas with air-cooled or air/oil-cooled engines.

Other brands made other choices. For example, you could use some VI improver, and then choose additives and blend stocks that clean up the coking and resist oxidation. While the flash point would be lower, the oil might perform just fine.

I'd avoid choosing a motor oil based on the numbers game. By themselves the flash point, pour point, and so on aren't indicative of how the oil will perform in your engine.


.

 

[Norm Olt]

...or, you could buy a few OEM oil filters and a couple changes of an inexpensive dino JASO MA oil and change the oil and filter out every 2 or 3K...

Inspecting the oil and filter, keeping tabs on how much oil your bike actually consumes, how it runs during this process may answer a lot of your concerns.

IMHO, a minor difference in flash points is only critical if you are actually loosing a bunch of oil between changes.

Or trying to get the oil to ignite.

Cheers!

 

[fuel tanker man]

I agree about the quick dino changes--at least that's what I've decided to do on my '94 Harley Evo engine.

The oil in a Harley Davidson engine can catch ****--to say the least. The engines run hotter than many water cooled engines, and at times they'll run cooler than water cooled engines. (Such as when you make short runs on cooler days).

If you get any condensation (water) in the oil it will need to burn off. If you can't get the oil temperature above 212F it's not going to vaporize and burn off the water. Synthetics (so we're all told) heat up more slowly, and they don't heat up as much as dinos. So it's possible that a good synthetic might be a bad idea if you're running short runs in the winter (as most cold weather rides are--short, that is!)

You want the oil to heat up quickly enough so that it'll disperse the water...

And on fuel dilution--very common, especially on carbureated v-twin bikes. What if you dilute the oil with fuel early on in a synthetic oil run? Say you're wanting to go to 6000 miles on the Mobil 1 V-Twin, but a fouling plug or a heating/cooling issue, or a carbureator issue causes you to thin the oil with gasoline in the first 1000 miles of riding. You'll be going another 5000 miles on what may now be a light 40 weight (or worse), severely compromised by fuel dilution.

These engines tend to "dirty up" the oil pretty quickly as well--another reason for short OCI's in my opinion.

So, for my part I've concluded that a 2000 to 2500 mile drain on a good 20W50 is the way to go. I can afford more frequent oil changes with the dino, and since I do ride on colder days I think the dino might (that's might) shed moisture more efficiently on such days.

I've gone with Havoline 20W50. I think you should do the same.

Dan

 

[medic]

quote:

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Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
If you get any condensation (water) in the oil it will need to burn off. If you can't get the oil temperature above 212F it's not going to vaporize and burn off the water. Synthetics (so we're all told) heat up more slowly, and they don't heat up as much as dinos. So it's possible that a good synthetic might be a bad idea if you're running short runs in the winter (as most cold weather rides are--short, that is!)

You want the oil to heat up quickly enough so that it'll disperse the water...

And on fuel dilution--very common, especially on carbureated v-twin bikes. What if you dilute the oil with fuel early on in a synthetic oil run? Say you're wanting to go to 6000 miles on the Mobil 1 V-Twin, but a fouling plug or a heating/cooling issue, or a carbureator issue causes you to thin the oil with gasoline in the first 1000 miles of riding. You'll be going another 5000 miles on what may now be a light 40 weight (or worse), severely compromised by fuel dilution.

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I'm gonna throw a wrench into the works here. Number 1 being the fuel dilution. Reldine has hown time and time again to be able to handle fuel dilution issues without batting an eye. Redline can probably handle fuel better than any other oil on the market. Plus, once you do get a decent day, the elevated temps will burn the fuel off.

IMHO, a synth oil will hold up better than a quality dino oil in an air cooled engine. In some older british made bikes, one day of riding in 90 degree temps will kill any good dino oil. Synth oils will hold up better to any of the problems you stated.

I will agree with you on one thing. If you are gonna run dino oil, don't try to push it to the 5,000 mile that Harley tells you to.

[ March 22, 2005, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: medic ]

 

[fuel tanker man]

I agree on not pushing the dino to 5K--but I wouldn't run a syn that far either for the reasons I mention.

I can't get on the Redline wagon--at least not their engine oils. Way too many terrible UOA's here, and way to many excuses being made to explain the results.

The Havoline 20W50 SL oil has a flash point of 492--which is actually better than some syns. Now, that doesn't mean a whole lot, but it does speak highly of the base oil.

Dan

 

[wileyE]

With upper ring land and piston crown reaching temps 1000+ degrees you have to wonder if the difference between a 450 or 500 FP rated oil really makes that much difference? Any oil that's exposed to the hot parts (for along enough time) is going to burn, it's what it leaves behind that is the question? or is what left behind delt with by something in the additive package? My guess is that a good add pack might make even the cheapest base stock perform? Maybe a syn basestock would need less additive to work? but who really cares as long as the oils is doing it's job? My experience in my aircooled gs's, Xr's and ZR's is they all shear down, foam out shift lousy and turn to crap after 100mph runs across the hot desert for hours on end, syn or dino.

 

[tmorris1]

You don't need to get an oil to 212 boiling point of water to burn off water condensation. It just has to get warmed up and run for a longer period of time. Put water in a glass in the 150 - 200 degree sun and see how long it lasts. Doesn't need to boil to get rid of the water. Most cars probably never get to 212 on the oil temp.

 

[fuel tanker man]

tmorris--good point, I stand corrected.

 

[SKUNKY]

quote:

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Originally posted by fuel tanker man:
[
I've gone with Havoline 20W50. I think you should do the same.

Dan [/QB]

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FTM..why not go with a HDEO like Delo or Pezz 15-40..more Z & P plus moly..??? Just ask'en...

 

[fuel tanker man]

I think an HDEO would probably work great. Harley Davidson does call for a 20W50, though--so I haven't been able to bring myself to use a 40 weight yet. I do think an HDEO would work--just perhaps not as well in very hot situations.

Am I wrong?

 

[SKUNKY]

"Am I wrong?"

No sir..don't think your wrong..I just got caught up in the thinner is better idea..so..I've been doing it for almowt a year now in a '90 EVO..I do add 7.5 ozs of the Val Ext.Pro(silver)..I have an oil cooler and a S&S oil pump that I think helps..so far the bike loves the oil..the Havoline 20-50 should work..a buddy of mine used Castrol 25-20 on his last EVO and went 150k miles with OCI at 2500 miles..go figure..

 

[fuel tanker man]

Which Castrol oil did he use? Is that a typo?

Anyway, I think you've got a good plan in place also. Harley does recommend using the HDEO's when their oil can't be found.

Lots of 20W50 shear quickly to the 40 weight range in an HD engine, so with the more shear stable HDEO (we're running 25,000 mile OCI's on our tanker trucks at work, and the UOA's are coming back really good!) you'll be fine, I'm sure.

It's a good approach, and well worth considering. If the SM rated 20W50 PCMO's lose any more ZDDP (as they are supposed to do), your plan will look even better.

Dan