KLOTZ R-5O TEAR DOWN PICS

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Before you look at these pictures, first let me explain how aggressive the KX port layout is, especially on the intake side.

The KX250 cylinder likes to leave vertical scratches on the intake side of the piston. This has been happening since I have been riding KX's (98-03). This is not dirt related trust me on this or jetting.The KX cylinder has a pretty huge intake window. I believe that when you are hammering, the up stroke of the piston presses into the intake opening of the cylinder, leaving the part of the piston where the ring end gaps ride pressing against the cylinder. Look at the pistons very closely. I never had a piston failure using any oil, but I was not happy with the look of the piston among other things until I used the 927 and KLOTZ. The other leading oil you see in the picture shows what I am talking about, I do not want to single out one oil, so I will not mention the brand, but I did use the ratio they recommended and I will tell you I was not confident in it. To be fair and honest, I am using avgas with the KLOTZ, the other leading oil I was using pump fuel, but I was using pump fuel with the 927 and was very happy with the results. The KLOTZ was run 40:1. On a side note the 04 KX's tin plate and streak their pistons to retain more oil HA!! The KLOTZ piston on the intake side is smooth as a baby's ......, no scratches. I pulled the pipe after a few hours on the new top end and I had very slight blowby on the exhaust side. After several more hours the blowby did not increase, so I believe that the blowby was only caused by the normal break-in period. I believe the flashpoint of the r-50 is 400 I like a high flashpoint ,but for running avgas(lead) and the high flashpoint the crown of the piston looks great.The black line you see on the bottom center skirt front and rear is magic marker I use to measure.
Keith 455.
"LET'S JUST RIDE"

PICTURES

[ January 14, 2004, 02:53 AM: Message edited by: KX 455 ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by KX 455:
The other leading oil you see in the picture shows what I am talking about, I do not want to single out one oil, so I will not mention the brand, but I did use the ratio they recommended and I will tell you I was not confident in it. To be fair and honest, I am using avgas with the KLOTZ, the other leading oil I was using pump fuel, but I was using pump fuel with the 927 and was very happy with the results. The KLOTZ was run 40:1. Keith 455.
"LET'S JUST RIDE"

PICTURES


With 2 stokes there are a lot of variables,

Couple of things, you have a higher performance motor than stock, you are running higher octane gas. And you are still trying to stick with the oil's mix ratio. I would think you would be a little smarter than the average bear. Maybe your conditions warrant you to mix at 40:1 with the other brand as well. Maybe 45:1 is optimal. It just make sense that a professional like your self would think that a mix ratio is set in stone. Shame on you.

Talk about being fair.
 
quote:

Originally posted by msparks:

quote:

Originally posted by KX 455:
The other leading oil you see in the picture shows what I am talking about, I do not want to single out one oil, so I will not mention the brand, but I did use the ratio they recommended and I will tell you I was not confident in it. To be fair and honest, I am using avgas with the KLOTZ, the other leading oil I was using pump fuel, but I was using pump fuel with the 927 and was very happy with the results. The KLOTZ was run 40:1. Keith 455.
"LET'S JUST RIDE"

PICTURES


Couple of things, you have a higher performance motor than stock, you are running higher octane gas. And you are still trying to stick with the oil's mix ratio. I would think you would be a little smarter than the average bear. Maybe your conditions warrant you to mix at 40:1 with the other brand as well. Maybe 45:1 is optimal. It just make sense that a professional like your self would think that a mix ratio is set in stone. Shame on you.

Talk about being fair.


.........

With 2 stokes there are a lot of variables.

If you read my post again in the boat forum then your statement above just agreed with me.I will recap it with with you. I believe I mentioned how can a oil company recommend 50:1 not knowing what size motor,what type of riding,or what rpm the motor is being sustained.You say my motor is modified yes it is,did I say I bumped up my compression I said I had head work done,it really doesn't matter the oil should handle it.What does does Avgas have to do with the ratio you mix at,infact the extra lead content you get with av gas aids in a little more lubrication so if you wanted to, you could back off of the ratio,butI am not a fan of this less oil myth check the pictures.If you took the time and read the part where I mention "I do not know if the oil was to blame or the ratio". Look I did not have a failure with any oils I have used in the past I am saying that ratio and that oil is not for me. Sure I could have went a little richer with the oil and fuel ratio say 40:1 like I did with the KLOTZ AND 927 ,but I have no faith in a company that recommends that ratio and I did not like the results. 1 more thing, I was very fair when I mentioned I used avgas with the KLOTZ av gas is a better lubricant fuel than pump fuel(LEAD). What I am saying is I got the same results using the 927 as I did the Klotz, infact the Klotz looked a little better ,but I am using Agas with the Klotz because I did bump up my compression after the amsoil last top end so that could be some of the reason the Klotz piston looked a little better than the 927 (Lead). To make it simple for you look at it like this. I was running the 927 40:1 and I was running the amsoil 50:1 45-50 hrs on each oil WITH PUMP FUEL than did a tear down. The picture on the left is the amsoil and the picture on the right is the KLOTZ the 927 piston oil looked basically like the KLOTZ. Some guy's are so thick headed pictures and taking the time to read just doesn't do it for them.I know what oil I am staying with and that is all I really care about. I thought some of you would appreciate this, that is why I posted it I am not trying to bring down a major company I just like putting the truth out here!
Keith 455.
"LET'S JUST RIDE"
 
quote:

Originally posted by KX 455:
I believe I mentioned how can a oil company recommend 50:1 not knowing what size motor,what type of riding,or what rpm the motor is being sustained. Keith 455.
"LET'S JUST RIDE" [/QB]

So I guess your beef is with the mix ratio recommendation and not the actual quality of the product. I can understand that.

I wonder what the Amsoil mixed at 40:1 would look like? I know I have no power to change the literature or the recommendation, though if you were my customer, I would ensure that if you had a special built race motor to start conservative then move up until you get the performace you are comfortable with.

give me a call anytime,
877-464-8798
 
The Interceptor oil is now the primary recommendation for all JASO FC applications, and will burn cleaner at richer ratios.

You have to keep in mind these mix ratio recommendations - from any company - aren't chiseled on stone tablets. I would use 50:1 as a starting point for a stock motor. However, I'd adjust that ratio based on significant engine mods,fuel, plug condition, exhaust deposits and a periodic teardown of the motor....

Geez, I'm starting to sound like Blano now
shocked.gif
 
As much as I detest amsoil 2000 I will say the pics you have shown have the tell tale signs of dirt entering the motor. I am aware of the intake port size on a kx 250 or a cr 250 for that matter. I have owned both of these bikes and have never had the the verticle scratches on the intake side of the piston. The only other thing that causes this is improper port chamfer and loose plateing flecking of the ports edge when the cylinder is new. BTW R-50 is showing deposit issue around the ring groves and on the pistons dome after only 50 hours. I might also add that you are running this engine rich judging by the pistons wash pattern. lean it out and the deposit issues will likely get much worse.
 
quote:

Originally posted by blano:
As much as I detest amsoil 2000 I will say the pics you have shown have the tell tale signs of dirt entering the motor. I am aware of the intake port size on a kx 250 or a cr 250 for that matter. I have owned both of these bikes and have never had the the verticle scratches on the intake side of the piston. The only other thing that causes this is improper port chamfer and loose plateing flecking of the ports edge when the cylinder is new. BTW R-50 is showing deposit issue around the ring groves and on the pistons dome after only 50 hours. I might also add that you are running this engine rich judging by the pistons wash pattern. lean it out and the deposit issues will likely get much worse.

......

If you look at the KLOTZ piston their is no scratches,their is no dirt entering the engine trust me on this. You MEAN FLAKING don't you BLANO
grin.gif
My PORTS ARE CHAMFERED BEAUTIFULLY.You say I am running rich because of the burn pattern on the piston,you are out of your mind,Don't get caught up on the piston color or deposits, different fuels and oils are misleading,if I was running the 927 the crown would be black that is the way 927 colors the piston you will get into trouble jetting by piston color. The crown looks great anyway remember I am using av gas (lead).The faces of the rings were spotlees no traces of blow by. What circuit am I running rich on Blano? the piston has been in for 45 hrs so tell me what circuit.Please

[ January 15, 2004, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: KX 455 ]
 
quote:

What circuit am I running rich on Blano?

You midrange is the likely culprit. A mx bike is operated mostly in this area and the KX is pig rich from the factory. BTW nice chop pics. You look like your several mains rich. With a 250cc bike little is gained by leaning it out to the edge on the main so I would leave it alone. BTW 45 hours may seem like alot to a mx guy, but I often go 100 hours or longer on my cr500af. The sleds i run see thousands of miles before rebuilds. I have one that has 5000 miles on it and its still going strong. I have some pics you might be interested in also. Mail me.
 
quote:

Originally posted by blano:

quote:

What circuit am I running rich on Blano?

You midrange is the likely culprit. A mx bike is operated mostly in this area and the KX is pig rich from the factory. BTW nice chop pics. You look like your several mains rich. With a 250cc bike little is gained by leaning it out to the edge on the main so I would leave it alone. BTW 45 hours may seem like alot to a mx guy, but I often go 100 hours or longer on my cr500af. The sleds i run see thousands of miles before rebuilds. I have one that has 5000 miles on it and its still going strong. I have some pics you might be interested in also. Mail me.


.......

Blano I was Kidding when I asked what circuit I was running rich on.I am jetted on the mark from the pilot to the main. When I reached 55-down degrees the needle became lean very distinct. I went from 2nd to 3rd clip pos and the motor woke up again. If i feel a rich or lean spot I am on it
wink.gif
Thanks for the compliment on the pics. I jetted weeks before I did the plug chops. I settled on the 148 main same temp I was just kinda reconfirming the main.If you look at the 152 you can see I pretty much was correct with the 148 (jetting by the seat of the pants).

Keith 455.
"LET'S JSUT RIDE"
 
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