M1 15-50/v-twin20-50 and stp oil treatment

[aircooled]

Read an interesting article from a Shell oil tech guy who likes using M1 in his bikes.

link: www.yft.org/tex_vfr/tech/oil.htm

He states he likes to use M1 15-50 instead of the much pricier V-Twin oil. He states they are just about the same with the additive packages differing for wet clutch app. (JASO MA vs MB)

He also states he likes to add some STP oil treatment to the 15-50 to add some anti wear properties to the car oil as these additives are beng reduced to save converters on cars. He states that the shot of ZDDP helps cam followers and other high wear parts.

I am very intersted in hearing some opinions on this slippery subject.

 

[MRC01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by aircooled:
Read an interesting article from a Shell oil tech guy who likes using M1 in his bikes.

link: www.yft.org/tex_vfr/tech/oil.htm

He states he likes to use M1 15-50 instead of the much pricier V-Twin oil. He states they are just about the same with the additive packages differing for wet clutch app. (JASO MA vs MB)

He also states he likes to add some STP oil treatment to the 15-50 to add some anti wear properties to the car oil as these additives are beng reduced to save converters on cars. He states that the shot of ZDDP helps cam followers and other high wear parts.

I am very intersted in hearing some opinions on this slippery subject.

---

He's right: 15w50 "red cap" is almost the exact same thing as Mx4T except that the latter costs twice as much and is 10w40 instead of 15w50.

I use "red cap" (the car stuff) in my bike which is a '99 Magna 750 with jet kit, K&N filter and Vance & Hines exhaust. It's a water cooled quad cam V-4 that puts down about 85 RWHP on the dyno. Getting a UOA very soon... stay tuned.

 

[JonS]

I think you used to be able to use a car oil prior to the SL ratings. With SL, this oil would not work in the bikes with wet clutches.

 

[Propflux01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JonS:
I think you used to be able to use a car oil prior to the SL ratings. With SL, this oil would not work in the bikes with wet clutches.

---

The only thing that bothers bikes by using 'newer' oils is if the oil contains a moly additive. Moly will make the clutch slip. Basically the only other real difference is less ZDDP in it.

 

[aircooled]

Sorry, forgot to mention this is on a Moto Guzzi, no shared clutch setup, so. I'm not concerned with slippage.

I am concerned about wear, what do you think about adding a shot of stp for some ZDDP?

Thanks,
John

 

[MRC01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JonS:
I think you used to be able to use a car oil prior to the SL ratings. With SL, this oil would not work in the bikes with wet clutches.

---

That turns out not to be the case. Mobil 1 "red cap" is an SL rated oil but it is not an "energy conserving" oil. Lots of guys are using it in wet clutch motorcycles and it does not make the clutch slip.

Perhaps "SL" allows higher ZDDP levels for the heavy oils? I don't know. But I do know from experience that "red cap" won't hurt a wet clutch.

P.S. I just used "search" and found this:
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000095#000000

Mobil 1 15w50 supersyn has 1072 ppm of K, 1175 of Zn. This is higher than the lighter weight oils. IIt has some moly but not enough to hurt a wet clutch.

[ August 07, 2003, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: MRC01 ]

 

[satterfi]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MRC01:
He's right: 15w50 "red cap" is almost the exact same thing as Mx4T except that the latter costs twice as much and is 10w40 instead of 15w50.

---

How do you know this? The VOA of these two oils don't look like they are the same.

From memory, MX4T has more than 1300 ppm Zn and P last time I looked. The SL version of M1 15w50 was on the order of 800ppm for Zn and P.

 

[Rob]

i just recieved my new sport rider magazine that preformed a decent test on auto and MC specific oils. Suprise! Torco T4R, Maxum ultra, Motul 300V and Motul E-Tec contain as much or more Moly than Mobil 15-50. The Torco contains almost 600 PPM with the average of all being 298 PPM. I have seen vigin test of the Mobil red top with Moly around 79 to 80 PPM with the Sport rider test showing 92 PPM.

So does this test show the Hype used by MC oil makers to charge there inflated prices? And that maybe Moly is not so bad for the wet clutches

[ August 13, 2003, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: Rob ]

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

We know moly's not bad. Red Line works awesome. Check out satterfi's analysis. I think he has another coming up too(can't wait to see). Also no shear whatsoever, which is phenominal for a multigrade engine oil in a gearbox.
Those that think M1 0w40 doesn't shear, put it in a gearbox and watch it turn to water. 15w50 will shear badly too. I would never use it.
I do think the "motorcycle" oils are hyped and inflated when you consider Red Line's performance, for less money. It's performance leaves nothing to be desired, so hype is the only reason the MC oils would sell. M1 Mx4T selling for same price as it is a joke.

 

[userfriendly]

Why use a multi-grade in a motorcycle at all? Cold start protection in freezing weather?
If you want to eliminate shear, try a HDMO 40 or 50. Products like Delo 400, Rotella T and so on are wet clutch compatable, will not shear and cost less than two bucks a litre.
Zink is an additive when all else fails. More zddp = longer protection, not better protection from metal to metal contact.
Hint: If an engine oil is Allison C-4 rated or Caterpillar T0-2, it will also pass JASO MA.
Some Cat TO-4s at a $1.50 a litre will pass engine oil CD and CE (obsolete) API ratings.
Excellent for short term non-extended drain applications.
Logic: If those lubricants are shear stable enough to be used in Cat drives, are wet brake and clutch compatable, your motorcycle transmissions are just a tease for them.

 

[klingon20]

I have been using mobil delvac 1300 in my honda 929 sportbike with no ill affects.
I am becoming a beliver in the heavy duty diesel oils for m/c

 

[userfriendly]

How much does 1330 and 1340 cost in your country?
I've mentioned 1330 in other threads as an oil that is likely under-priced with performance that is likely under-stated.
I have not seen single grade Delvacs in Canada.
We have a similar product from Pet-Can called Duron 30. A winter grade CF 2/CF medium ash.
250C flash point, 123 VI, low pour point. Must be at least a group II.
Cost $2.50 CDN$/litre or around $1.70 US$/QT. at bulk outlets.

 

[klingon20]

i buy mobil delvac 1300 15w/40 for $5.96 a gal at Walmart.
If you have heard of any problems running this oil in a high performanced water cooled motorcyle please let me know.

Thanks,

 

[userfriendly]

Klingon;
The problem with you using Delvac 1300 15W40 at six bucks a gallon is that you are not supporting the motorcycle industry's master plan of seperating you from your money as quickly as possible.
There are several industrial lubricants that can serve motorsport.
What you need to do is find out which ones they are and what they can do.
Then,
Buy a drum of the stuff at a dollar a gallon, put it into pint sized containers and sell them for five bucks each.
Or $14.99 a quart for AW hydraulic fluid in the application of motorcycle suspension fluids.
When you have achieved that level, you can afford to sponsor racing and take out full page ads in magazines.
Who pays for all those thouands of dollar endevors?
Hint:
1. A famous circus guy said there was one born every minute.
2. A course bottom-feeding fresh water fish.

 

[MRC01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by satterfi:

quote:

---

Originally posted by MRC01:
He's right: 15w50 "red cap" is almost the exact same thing as Mx4T except that the latter costs twice as much and is 10w40 instead of 15w50.

---

How do you know this? The VOA of these two oils don't look like they are the same.

From memory, MX4T has more than 1300 ppm Zn and P last time I looked. The SL version of M1 15w50 was on the order of 800ppm for Zn and P.

---

Actually the M1 15w50 is > 1000 for both Zn and K. Slightly lower than Mx4T perhaps, but not by much.

I just sampled the "red cap" from my Honda Magna 750 and dropping it in the mail today, so UOA coming soon...

 

[Rob]

I scaned part of the Sport rider test. I will post a link below. Click on my photos then on the Test JPEG
web page

 

[MRC01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rob:
I scaned part of the Sport rider test. I will post a link below. Click on my photos then on the Test JPEG
web page

---

VERY INTERESTING. So "red cap" has almost exactly the same Zn & K levels as Mx4T. This is what I've seen in prior analysis, but it's nice to see it confirmed for the latest "SL" blends.

Interesting, there is one big difference between "red cap" and Mx4T (besides the 15w50 vs. 10w40 weight), and that is moly. Mx4T has very low moly, and "red cap" has a moderate amount.

IMO it's unlikely that the moly in "red cap" is going to hurt a wet clutch, especially when one considers that it's about the same level as what is in Honda HP4, which is approved for Honda's wet clutch bikes. This is also borne by the experience of many motorcyclists (including myself) using "red cap" in their wet clutch bikes with no problems.

Seeing this data reinforces my opinion that "red cap" is indeed a good oil for wet clutch bikes that specify 10w40 or 20w50 oil, and that Mx4T is mostly a marketing ploy to lighten motorcyclists' wallets. [flame suit on]

 

[userfriendly]

Mobil is not trying to rip anyone off. The object in business is to make money not friends.
The cost of a quart of oil on the store shelves includes putting bulk oil into one quart bottles with labels .
Putting 12 bottles in a box and 20 boxes on a pallet.
Pallets cannot be stacked when shipped.
Now someone has to un-pack that mess and put those one quart bottles on a shelf one at a time.
A customer walks into the store and un-stocks the shelf taking 3 bottles up to the cashier, ****s around trying to find his credit card for a $12.00 purchase, while his 2 year old screams and pulls the candy bars down.
The shopping cart is left in the middle of the parking lot for someone else to put away.
The same day across the bay, a ship pulls into port and orders 23,000 gallons of #40 engine lube at $2.13 a gallon.
The same product off of the store shelf cost $4.89 a quart.

 

[RoadKingRider]

How about this rationale for using M1 15W50 vs M1 20W50 - does it make sense?

I pulled it from another forum.

______________________________________
Here's the low-down on the M1-redcap 15W50 vs V-twin 20W50:

Mobil 1 15W50 Red Cap

Mobil 1 With SuperSynT
SAE Grade 15W-50
Product Number 48120-0
API Service Classification SL/CF
NOT GF-3 rated
ACEA A3/B3/B4-02
Gravity, API 32.5
Specific Gravity 0.863
Pour Point, °C °F -45° -49°
Flash Point, ASTM D 92, °C °F 255° 491°
Viscosity Cold Cranking, cP @ °C 5,234 @ -20°
Cold Pumping, cP @ °C 14,050 @ -25°
Kinematic, cSt @ 40°C 124.7
Kinematic, cSt @ 100°C 17.4
Pumpability Limit, °C °F -37° -35°
Viscosity Index 185 176 169 145 155
Energy Conserving - No

481200-00 MOBIL 1 15W-50
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA BULLETIN
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Product and Technical Information: 800-662-4525 703-846-6693
---------------------------------------------------------------------
2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
---------------------------------------------------------------------
CHEMICAL NAMES AND SYNONYMS: SYN. HYDROCARBONS AND ADDITIVES INGREDIENTS:
Substance Name Approx. Wt%
-------------- -----------
PHOSPHORODITHOIC ACID, O,O-DI C1-14-ALKYL ESTERS,
ZINC SALTS 2:1 ZDDP
68649-42-3
OTHER INGREDIENTS:
Substance Name Approx. Wt%
-------------- -----------
POLYOLEFIN POLYAMINE 1-5
SUCCINIMIDE, POLYOL
ALKYLATED DIPHENYL AMINES 68411-46-
---------------------------------------------------------------------
9. PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical physical properties are given below. Consult Product Data Sheet for specific details.
APPEARANCE: Liquid
COLOR: Amber
ODOR: Mild
BOILING POINT C F: > 316 600
VAPOR PRESSURE-mmHg 20 C: < 0.1
VAPOR DENSITY: > 2.0
RELATIVE DENSITY, 15/4 C: 0.849
PARTITION COEFFICIENT: > 3.5
VISCOSITY AT 40 C, cSt: 125.0
VISCOSITY AT 100 C, cSt: 17.4
POUR POINT C F : -45 -49
DMSO EXTRACT, IP-346 WT.%: --------------------------------------------------------------------
The following product ingredients are cited on the lists below:
CHEMICAL NAME
-------------
BUTYL BENZYL PHTHALATE >0.39%
ZINC (ELEMENTAL ANALYSIS)(0.12%
PHOSPHORODITHOIC ACID, O,O-DI
C1-14-ALKYL ESTERS, ZINC SALTS 2:1
ZDDP 0.38%
ZINC DITHIOPHOSPHATE 0.94%

********************************************************************
Mobil 1 V-Twin

Above about 250° F, conventional motor oil is going to break down. Mobil 1 V-Twin synthetic oil is good to above 300° F.

Mobil 1 Motorcycle Oil V-Twin
Product Number 48139-0
Engine/Application Type 4-Cycle
SAE Grade 20W-50
Service Classification API SH, SG/CF
Gravity, API 29.4
Density, lb/gal @ 60°F 7.33
Flash Point ASTM D92, °C °F 270 518
Pour Point, °C °F -51 -60
Viscosity
Kinematic, cSt @ 40°C 130.0
Kinematic, cSt @ 100°C 17.7
Cold Cranking, cP 2930 @ -10°C
Pumping, cP 8500 @ -20°C
Viscosity Index 150

481390-00 MOBIL 1 V-TWIN 20W-50
MATERIAL SAFETY DATA BULLETIN
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Product and Technical Information: 800-662-4525 703-846-6693
---------------------------------------------------------------------
2. COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
---------------------------------------------------------------------
CHEMICAL NAMES AND SYNONYMS: SYN. HYDROCARBONS AND ADDITIVES
GLOBALLY REPORTABLE MSDS INGREDIENTS:
Substance Name Approx. Wt%
-------------- -----------
PHOSPHORODITHIOIC ACID, O,O-DI-C1-14-ALKYL ESTERS,
ZINC SALT 2:1 ZDDP
68649-42-3
OTHER INGREDIENTS:
Substance Name Approx. Wt%
-------------- -----------
ALKYLATED DIPHENYL AMINES 68411-46-1
---------------------------------------------------------------------
9. PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROPERTIES
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Typical physical properties are given below.
APPEARANCE: Liquid
COLOR: Amber
ODOR: Mild
VAPOR PRESSURE-mmHg 20 C: < 0.1
RELATIVE DENSITY, 15/4 C: 0.86
SOLUBILITY IN WATER: Negligible
PARTITION COEFFICIENT: > 3.5
VISCOSITY AT 40 C, cSt: 52.0
VISCOSITY AT 100 C, cSt: 17.0
POUR POINT C F: -54-6
VOC: < 5.00 Wt. %; 0.367 lbs/gal
DMSO EXTRACT, IP-346 WT.%: ---------------------------------------------------------------------
The following product ingredients are cited on the lists below:
CHEMICAL NAME
-------------
BUTYL BENZYL PHTHALATE >0.48%
ZINC ELEMENTAL ANALYSIS 0.11%
CHLORINE (ELEMENTAL ANALYSIS 0.02%
ZINC DITHIOPHOSPHATE 1.08%

The two numbers to judge motor oil by are primarily the ZINC DITHIOPHOSPHATE content and the ASTM D92 FLASH POINT the temp at which the oil becomes carbonized).

M1 Redcap has 0.94% Zinc DTP vs V-Twin's 1.08% ... if the oil is changed every 3000 miles, the 0.14% diff is insignificant.
M1 Redcap has an ASTM-D92 temp of 491F vs V-Twin's 518F ... that's only a difference of 27F deg. But more importantly, if the engine oil temp ever goes over 450F, many of your engine's seals will already be melted. And, generally the piston and head temp will be 3 to 3.5 times the oil's temp.
Keep in mind that most aluminum alloys get soft and begin to melt around 1300F. So if the oil ever peaked near V-Twin's 518F, that would put the piston/head temp near 1500F... at this point, the rings would have suffered "thermal ring butt breakage", causing the piston to sieze in the cylinder and probably trash the big end bearings on the crank ... but, by gawd, the oil would still be good!

There is a difference in the oils, and by pure numbers, V-Twin is better - but the difference is so insignificant its meaningless, except to Mobil's marketing legal staff. (they CAN claim its different and better). IMHO, save your $$$ for more chrome

 

[userfriendly]

And for your boat motor we could go with Exxon's EXXMAR X70. TBN of 70 in SAE40 or 50 at just over two bucks a gallon.
Want a high zddp oil? Try Chevron's synthetic trans 50 at 3.5% at $3.50 a litre.
The oil and additives cost pennies. Its all marketing and sales.
It cost $10,000 dollars to fill up the fuel tank on one locomotive.
I can burn that off in one shift.