Specific Recommendation on Oil for a Honda VTX

[Tapper]

I've been reading the many posts here, and am hoping some of the more learned posters can give me their recommendations for a unique bike, Honda's VTX. There has been considerable discussion about this topic among the VTX community, and having read most of the articles here, I can see there's a lot of misunderstandings there as well. So, I'm hoping a few of the knowledgable posters here, will share their thoughts with me.

The VTX is a water cooled V-Twin, with an 1800cc displacement. It has a very long stroke, and cylinder walls coated with Nikasil (silicon carbide in a nickel substrate). The jugs, gears, and very large wet clutch all share the same oil supply. It has a huge dual pin crank, and square cut gears. The motor runs at RPM's less than 5600, but with very high piston speeds due to the stroke length. Those coffee can sized pistons produce a lot of carbon.

Most of us have been using Mobil One red cap 15w-50, both in the older SJ formulation, and in the newer SL "syuper syn" variety without problems. There are quite a few that use dino oil of varying types, and a lot of confusion about when to start running synthetic, which oil (of any variety) is best suited for this motor, etc.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts..

Brian "Tapper" Davis

[ June 30, 2003, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Tapper ]

 

[47HO]

I think running a synthetic is a good idea, but not so sure about the heavy 15W-50. What weight does Honda recommend?

 

[msparks]

My recommendation would be to run a 10w40 synthetic or at least a semi-synthetic.

Most of the water cooled bikes now a days' have a very efficient cooling system. The 10w40 should give you all the protection you need.

If your running a conventional, probably look at a 20w50.

 

[MRC01]

Check your manual. Honda usually recommends 3 weights: 10w40 for all temps, 10w30 OK for cold winters, and 20w50 OK for hot summers. If that's the case with your bike, you should be able to run Mobil 1 "red cap". That's what I use in my '99 Magna.

Whatever you use, just make sure it's not an "energy conserving" oil. Honda disrecommends these oils because they have the potential to reduce the life of the wet clutch.

 

[Tapper]

What I'm looking for, is a recommendation for specific oils, rather than a generic "10w-40".

Which Mobil One? What about Delvac? What about the boutique oils?

 

[msparks]

Amsoil 10w40 AMF would be my recommendation. If you are looking for specifics. This stuff is less than $6/quart. Mobil 1 is also a good choice, Most Advance auto's carry the Motorcycle specific stuff. Also Golden spectro is a good choice for wet clutch applications. It has good reviews by motorcycle consumer news. Lastly Doesn't honda have their own brand??

http://www.amsoil.com/products/amf.htm

 

[MRC01]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tapper:
What I'm looking for, is a recommendation for specific oils, rather than a generic "10w-40".

Which Mobil One? What about Delvac? What about the boutique oils?

---

I'd use either Amsoil 10w40 or Mobil 1 15w50 whichever is easier to get.

I've read good things about Rotella and Delvac but only 2nd hand info.

I would avoid motorcycle specific blends as many are remarketed versions of car oil, so for the price you might as well get a group IV synthetic.

 

[MRC01]

quote:

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Originally posted by msparks:

quote:

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Originally posted by MRC01:
I'd use either Amsoil 10w40 or Mobil 1 15w50 whichever is easier to get.

I've read good things about Rotella and Delvac but only 2nd hand info.

I would avoid motorcycle specific blends as many are remarketed versions of car oil, so for the price you might as well get a group IV synthetic.

---

FYI, Motorcycle specific oils do not have friction modifiers that could mess with the wet clutch operation. You may or may not have problems using a regular car oil in your bike.

That being said most diesel oil's do not have friction modifiers as well. But I did run Delo 400 for about 1500 miles in my 02 Triumph and the last 500 miles the shifting quality went south pretty fast. No clutch problem, just the shifting got noticably notchey.

Most Motorcycle specific lubes with have a high ZDDP as well, to provide a better barrier lube in the advent of heavy torque/hp to Displacement. [/QB]

---

Mobil 1 claims the red cap is safe for bikes with wet clutches (though they recommend their MC specific oil of course). It is not an energy conserving oil so it passes Honda's requirements. Lots of people are using this oil in their bikes including myself with no problems.

As for the ZDDP: yes it's true that many of the MC specific blends have more ZDDP. But if the oil is maintaining its viscosity, is the ZDDP needed? Given a choice between a group IV syn that will maintain its viscosity but has low ZDDP, and a group II or III oil that shears down rapidly but has more ZDDP, I'll pick the first. I figure if the oil maintains its vis then high ZDDP levels are unnecessary.

The Magna 750 is probably even harder on oil than the VTX 1800. The Magna revs almost twice as high, runs higher compression and higher BMEP, and has 4 chain driven overhead cams.

 

[GeorgeCLS]

Mobil 1 MX4T would be an excellent choice in that it is a motorcycle specific formulation, providing super wear protection, unequalled cooling, detergency and optimum viscosity which would provide maximum HP. Churning a 50W creates heat, robs horsepower. Mobil 1 MX-4T would be ideal.
George Morrison

 

[MRC01]

quote:

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Originally posted by GeorgeCLS:
Mobil 1 MX4T would be an excellent choice in that it is a motorcycle specific formulation, providing super wear protection, unequalled cooling, detergency and optimum viscosity which would provide maximum HP. Churning a 50W creates heat, robs horsepower. Mobil 1 MX-4T would be ideal.
George Morrison

---

Did you paste that from a Mobil 1 MX4T ad? LOL

Seriously, I wonder what the difference really is. I read an analysis of the prior "TriSynthetic" formulation which found that there were no real differences between red cap and MX4T, just the weight: 15w50 versus 10w40. Basically they both had the same ZDDP levels. So you pay twice the price just to get 10w40 instead of 15w50.

Now maybe that's changed with the new "supersyn" formula. But based on how similar the prior formulas were, I remain skeptical and assume that MX4T is still a marketing scam to get bikers to pay twice the price for the oil. Mobil1 wouldn't be the first company to do that...

 

[msparks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by MRC01:
I'd use either Amsoil 10w40 or Mobil 1 15w50 whichever is easier to get.

I've read good things about Rotella and Delvac but only 2nd hand info.

I would avoid motorcycle specific blends as many are remarketed versions of car oil, so for the price you might as well get a group IV synthetic. [/QB]

---

FYI, Motorcycle specific oils do not have friction modifiers that could mess with the wet clutch operation. You may or may not have problems using a regular car oil in your bike.

That being said most diesel oil's do not have friction modifiers as well. But I did run Delo 400 for about 1500 miles in my 02 Triumph and the last 500 miles the shifting quality went south pretty fast. No clutch problem, just the shifting got noticably notchey.

Most Motorcycle specific lubes with have a high ZDDP as well, to provide a better barrier lube in the advent of heavy torque/hp to Displacement.

 

[sprintman]

Welcome back George. It's been a while or have you been 'lurking'?

 

[satterfi]

1) Redline 10w40
2) M1 MX4T
3) Amsoil 10w40

 

[MRC01]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay:
Tapper, you still haven't said what viscosity Honda recommends for the bike.

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Most 4 stroke honda street bikes take 10w40 for all temperatues, with 10w30 OK for winter and 20w50 OK for summer. They also recommend API SH or later, and they disrecommend oils marked as "energy conserving".

This has been true for every Honda I've owned, and I've owned several... from my 1973 CB-350-4 to my current 1999 Magna 750, and a few more in between.

This leaves the field wide open, from group II to group IV. All the popular group IV choices mentioned above meet all these requirements.

 

[Jay]

Tapper, you still haven't said what viscosity Honda recommends for the bike.

 

[Problem Solver]

There was a post above stating that most Diesel Formulations do not have "friction mods" in them but I didn't see anyone recommending these oils. I've had great success using Amsoil 5w-30 Series 3000 in 600cc motorcycle engines in racing applications; typically rev at 14.4 up to 15.2 rpms continuously for 30 & up to 50 laps at a time. NOTE: These cars do not have to use the clutch after the initial take-off so this may not be relevant but these cars have seen normal op. temps drop 8 degrees from Mobil 1 15w-50 and 6 degrees from Royal Purple 0w-30. All bike owners are very selective and rightfully so as to what they put in their engines; I'm hoping to get this oil labeled for motorcycle engines too. This application has the written blessing from Amsoil's technical services dept. now. If this were labeled for motorcycle engines, can anyone tell me if formulation changes would be required or if it would be possible to simple put the same oil under a different label?

 

[Tapper]

MRC01 got it on the viscosity recommendations.

How about the Mobil One 0w-40? Seems it would be more pumpable than the 15w-50 in a water cooled V-Twin. Anything in the 0w-40 that would effect the wet clutch operation?

Ideally, the lower-cost auto oils would be preferred over MX4T, which (although an excellent choice) is ridiculously overpriced, simply by virtue of the "Motorcycle" label.

 

[MRC01]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tapper:
How about the Mobil One 0w-40? Seems it would be more pumpable than the 15w-50 in a water cooled V-Twin. Anything in the 0w-40 that would effect the wet clutch operation?

Ideally, the lower-cost auto oils would be preferred over MX4T, which (although an excellent choice) is ridiculously overpriced, simply by virtue of the "Motorcycle" label.

---

I totally agree about the MX4T. The 10w40 weight is perfect and I'd use it if it cost the same as the rest but the price is simply ridiculous.

On the 0w40 I'd be concerned with 2 things: First, whether its additive package is safe for a wet clutch. Second, whether it will break down more quickly due to the wide viscosity range which implies that it has more viscosity improvers than a 10w40 or a 15w50.

I've been using Mobil 1 15w50 in my '99 Magna for the past few years. It is not energy conserving and I've had no problems with the clutch. There are other good oils to use (Amsoil, Redline, Rotella) but Mobil1 is always readily available in my area.

 

[mcmech]

I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who will pay $14,000 for a new motorcycle, hundreds of dollars for leather and chrome plated doodad accessories but refuse to pay an extra $2-$4 a quart for the best oil.
These same people think nothing of paying an extra $2 for a tank of premium gas, every fill-up, when the bike runs the same on regular octane.
Go figure......

 

[MRC01]

quote:

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Originally posted by mcmech:
I'm constantly amazed at the number of people who will pay $14,000 for a new motorcycle, hundreds of dollars for leather and chrome plated doodad accessories but refuse to pay an extra $2-$4 a quart for the best oil.
These same people think nothing of paying an extra $2 for a tank of premium gas, every fill-up, when the bike runs the same on regular octane.
Go figure......

---

Don't most of those guys ride Harleys?

What about people who pay $8k for a new motorcycle, don't buy chrome plated doo-dads, use the 87 octane fuel the engine was designed to burn, and don't want to pay twice as much for the same oil in a different container, knowing the engine is going to outlast the rest of the bike anyway.

AFAIC, $4.50 per quart for Mobil 1 or Amsoil is already paying a $3 per quart premium for a better oil. I'm skeptical whether paying an additional $4 per quart on top of that (for MX4T) provides any measurable benefit.

[ July 09, 2003, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: MRC01 ]