The Case for Using Mobil 1 15W-50 Automobile Oil in a Motorcycle

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LJ

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I realize that the choice of motor oil involves all kinds of tickling emotions and prompts heated discussions. So I invite you all to simply listen to the reasons for my choice.

Ever since Mobil 1 synthetic oil was introduced, I've used it in all my vehicles, and changed it at 3,000 mile intervals or less. For awhile now, I've been reading cautionary comments on the web about using automobile-specific Mobil 1 in motorcycles instead of motorcycle-specific motor oils. I can certainly afford the more expensive product but I was skeptical that it really was a better product. So I looked into it a-little and this is what I came up with ...

THE CASE FOR USING MOBIL 1 15W-50 AUTOMOBILE OIL IN A MOTORCYCLE

Manufacturers' Recommendation

Most motorcycle manufacturers recommends motorcycle-specific oil, pointing out that car motor oils have been reformulated and no longer meet the needs of motorcycle engines. Oddly enough, they usually make no distinction between the use of synthetic or petroleum-based oils even though it's an established fact that synthetic oils are a better lubricant. Full synthetic oils offer truly significant advantages, due to their superior high temperature oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temperature flow characteristics as compared to traditional petroleum-based oils.

They also make no distinction between petroleum and synthetic oil when recommending oil change schedules even though the oil manufacturers claim that synthetics can be run two-to-three times the mileage of petroleum oils between changes. The oil drain interval that is specified in the owner's manual is for what is called normal service. Normal service is defined as the engine being at normal operating temperature, at highway speeds, and in a dust-free environment. Stop and go, city driving, trips of less than ten miles, or extreme heat or cold puts the oil change interval into the severe service category, which has a shorter recommended change interval. So, manufacturers are saying to change your oil even more often anyway because no motorcycle experiences only normal service conditions.

Consequently, longer drain intervals should not be used to balance out the higher cost of the synthetics. Synthetic oil can be considered cost-effective only if the potentially higher rebuild and repair costs associated with increased engine wear are factored in. There is no convincing evidence, so far, that synthetic oils lowers these costs in motorcycle engines.

Anti-Wear Additives

According to their manufacturers, motorcycle-specific oils are claimed to be formulated with additives that reduce engine wear. Specifically, they point to the use of zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP) as the prime anti-wear additive used in all engine oils. ZDDP, however, contains phosphorous that has a life-shortening effect on the catalysts used in exhaust emission equipment, first only on cars, but now more recently on motorcycles. So the Environmental Protection Agency mandated a reduction (from a maximum of 0.12% down to 0.10%) of anti-wear additives containing phosphorous in automobile-specific engine oils.

It's important to note that this reduction was only required for the "energy conserving" lower oil viscosities of 0W-20 through 10W-30. The thicker oils were not required to meet this lowered phosphorus level. That is not to say that oil manufacturers won't lower the ZDDP levels in their 40 and 50 weight viscosity oils in the future. Since additives cost the oil companies money, if they feel that they can get by with less, they probably will be inclined to do so. Also, standardizing the additive packages across all viscosities would also simplify their production process. It's important to note here that, formulating oil with higher levels of anti-wear compounds than is needed, simply results in unnecessary combustion chamber deposits. Which is why most oil companies LOWERED anti-wear compound levels even before EPA required it.

So far however, tests have shown that automobile-specific Mobil 1 15W-50 (a viscosity exempted from the mandated reduction) has had no change in phosphorous level in its formulation. Further, tests have shown that after the EPA-mandated reduction, Mobil 1 motorcycle-specific oil has now only about 20% more ZDDP than Mobil 1 10W-30, but about the same level as automobile-specific Mobil 1 15W-50.

Keep in mind however that, even though automobile oils now contain somewhat lower levels of ZDDP, Exxon-Mobil still states that Mobil 1 automobile oils "exceed the most-demanding protection requirements of modern, high-reving, powerful 4-stroke automobile engines ... etc. etc. etc." So, where's the reason to believe that the lubrication requirements of street motorcycles is measurably different? It seems clear that the current anti-wear additive levels in modern synthetics (both automotive and motorcycle blends) provide greater protection than required in any high performance motorcycle engine during the suggested oil change interval.

The oil manufacturer's advertising that directly equates reduction in engine wear with the tiny percent changes of ZDDP in the oil is misleading the consumer at best. It's well known that majority of engine wear is known to more likely occurring during the metal-to-metal contact of a cold start, an operating condition best handled by a synthetic oil's very high film strength properties. Increasing the amount of ZDDP in the oil does no good if there's no oil coating there at startup.

Catalytic Converter Models

The latest models are now being shipped equipped with catalytic converters. Since motorcycle-specific oils with higher levels of phosphorus are now verboten by EPA for use in these models, I'm curious what oil the bike makers will now recommend? Maybe Mobil 1 15W-50.

Friction Modifiers

Exxon-Mobil claims, as a selling point, that the formulation of motorcycle-specific Mobil 1 MX4T has none of the oil additives called friction modifiers (usually molybdenum-based but not necessarily) that could lead to clutch slippage in somr wet-clutch motorcycles. This is not an concern, of course, for dry clutch models. But, this IS supposed to be the current compelling reason to avoid some automobile-specific formulations of Mobil 1 that now contain friction modifiers to meet fuel economy mandates, when previously they did not. At it turns out, wet-clutch slippage can be a problem, and seen more often when you use the lower viscosity 10W-30 Mobil 1 that is designated "Energy-Conserving".

Energy-Conserving Oils

Combine a lower viscosity oil with a formulation that includes additional quantities of molybdenum-based friction modifiers and you get a Energy-Conserving designation in the API Service label on the back of the container.

But, automobile-specific 15W-50 Mobil 1 doesn't carry this designation because of its higher viscosity. A higher viscosity oil's resistance to flow is the reason why automobile-specific oils that are not energy conserving have been used successfully in motorcycles without wet-clutch slippage problems. So 15W-50 Mobil 1 works fine in wet clutches. Keep in mind however, that because motor oils loose 30% (or more) of their viscosity in the first 1,500 miles, you will tend toward wet-clutch slippage later if you prolong your oil change interval.

Viscosity Retention

A frequent marketing claim made for motorcycle-specific oils is that they retain their viscosity longer than automotive oils when used in a motorcycle. That is, motorcycle-specific oils contain large amounts of expensive, shear-stable polymers that better resist the punishment put on the oil by the motorcycle's transmission, thus retaining their viscosity longer and better than automotive oils would under the same conditions.

Nevertheless, when tested by MCN, the best-performing oil of the group tested was Mobil 1 automotive oil. Based on their test results, here's their advice:

1. Use a synthetic oil. The viscosity of synthetic-based oils generally drops more slowly than that of petroleum-based oils in the same application. There is no evidence that motorcycle-specific synthetics out-perform their automotive counterparts in viscosity retention when used in a motorcycle.

2. Change your oil more frequently, and more often than 3,000 mile intervals that is normal for cars. Motorcycles are somewhat harder on an oil's viscosity retention properties than cars. (The gears in the transmission are probably the significant factor in cutting the longer oil molecules into shorter pieces that are less viscous.)

3. Use Mobil 1 in the 15W-50 viscosity only. The recent reformulation of thinner viscosity versions of Mobil 1 make them inappropriate for both wet and dry clutch applications.

Better Detergent Additives

Exxon-Mobil claims, also as a selling point, that Mobil 1 MX4T is specifically designed for sport bike needs and therefore uses a different dispersant/detergent technology for "better high-temperature performance and engine cleanliness." Without an explanation of this technology it's hard to be specific here but one thing is certain. Water-cooled motorcycles operate at similar temperatures as cars do so this presents no obvious advantage here. The dispersant/detergent issue is probably more directed at wet-clutch designs where abrasive friction material particles are suspended in the engine lubricating oil, so there's no distinct advantage to dry-clutch motorcycles. Changing your oil more frequently negates this issue.

Marketing

Separating the oil manufactures' marketing hype from fact is difficult for the consumer. Given that the role of marketing is to enhance their oil's image and persuade you to switch to it, be sceptical when presented with stated claims left unproven.

A tactic often taken is: more is better. In this case, if the higher levels of anti-wear compounds advertised in motorcycle specific oils are good, still more is better, right? Maybe, but using oil with higher levels of anti-wear compounds - than needed - will cause increased combustion chamber deposits. That is why most oil companies LOWERED anti-wear levels before the government mandates intended to protect catalytic converters.

Another approach, enhancing their product's status through premium pricing and sponsorships (that are essentially paid endorsements) are effective ways of positioning their product to convince you, the consumer, that you're getting the very best when you buy it.

If you're not a product engineer, guidance from sources like Consumer Reports can be useful here in making informed decisions. For example, they did a quality comparison of several products a few years back and found that the less expensive products often worked the best and had the highest quality, but noted that people tended to buy the more expensive products because they thought they would be better.

Keep in mind that dealer's recommend what they sell and it's natural to expect that they try to sell products with the highest profit margin, all other things being equal. Caveat emptor.

Bottom Line

The bottom line here is, to get the best protection, you need to change any oil more frequently. Changing your oil serves to remove ingested abrasive dust and harmful combustion by-products from the engine that accelerate wear. Studies have shown that most motor oils loose 30% of their viscosity in the first 1,500 miles (probably a good change interval for motorcycles anyway.)
 
Rant continuation !
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If they would drop the price to any where near what the oil is worth they might turn it into the Supersyn of oil to Automobiles but until that day comes,,,we will be buying known superior oils for that price or at least equals for 1.50 per quart.

I might be speaking to soon but if the M1 M/C oils does not contain a good quantity of D-Ester,or other mixed Ester formulation,they are milking the consumer cow imo
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It won't work here in America,land of alternative oils
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We do have a Mobil Site sponsor ya know,,maybe he would possibly give us a VOA and a UOA ????? I prefer the 10/40 flavored Mobil oil if a VOA was given,still would not show Esters,,only those in the know could tell us that.

Rant continues
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Does Mobil want out of the M/C oil business?

[ January 04, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
If the car oils are so bad for wet clutch applications, why won't the bike oil companies release JASO T903 friction test data for their products to the public?

Could it be because their bike oils aren't any better in this regard?

Even worse, the bike oil companies are clinging to that old API SG standard. That lets them get away with using crapass base-stocks and weak additive packages since they don't have to subject the oils to the modern API SL test sequences.
 
So you are saying that you use Mobil 1 15-50 and change it at 1500 miles? If it can't do this then it isn't worth using period. Maybe a Mobil rep. can step in here but I plan to use the MX4T oil for 2000 mile intervals that I got for $3 a quart. This is probably not the ultimate oil to use in a sportbike but as with most large companies it comes down to making money more than anything else. I do not think Mobil is selling a lot of this Bike oil since, on the east coast anyway, it is no longer sold in Walmart and dusty on the shelves of auto parts stores. It will probably be discontinued as it needs an update quick. Small changes and a bike on the front should not double the price as is the current version. Rant over.
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quote:

Originally posted by Chris:
Thought there was more additives in the SG oils.

There are more additives in the SG's-SJ's and those designations does not really mean they are using bad basestocks.Just check the CAS #'s for the hydrostreams used . All M/C dinos are not equal in additive packages or especially the quality of the VII's used,paramount in my opinion to successfull use of a multi wt oil in a bike.

So some will think,hey I will just use a HD oil,,well they are not created equal in the amount on anti foamants either and some may not me up to the task of 14k operating RPM,,just a note to be carefull in what you use. Last I saw the cams still run on the cylinder head castings,not bearings to replace. Skimp not on a oil for a M/C you like and intend to keep is my opinion
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EDIT:
Back to the original topic,that Supersyn 15/50 I suppose would work well,problem is all clutches are not created equal,an oil company is not going to list the engines that can or cannot tolerate a oil with a FM,,the weaker springed diaphram type clutches in the Yamaha FJ 1100-1200 series might be an example . An upgrade to a Barnett clutch package would take the non use of a FM's oil out of the equation for any oil if in doubt contact them,,,see satterfli's UOA ? That Redline,power of the bike and clutch design worked well there.

I myself am using a non FM'd oil but it is not because I am afraid of the clutch slipping,I want oil to the cams fast,the oil I use does that well. Other automobile race dino's will do the same thing in a different way,the tackifiers will hold the lube there during start-up but they are not all equal as well,,a quagmire it can be but not really a big problem.
If in doubt,use analyisis with a PCMO to see how it holds up to shear and the owners type driving style.At 5 bucks a quart I think it might be hard to go wrong with Delvac 1 oil. But there are other oils better suited for bikes imo. More but dragboats tired
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[ January 05, 2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
I think you guys are more than justified in ranting about cheap oil in a fancy bottle being sold to cycle owners. It's just a shame that people do this and does nothing for the credibility of the companies who do have their names on those bottles.
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'Boat, I hear what you are saying about the additives ... especially anti-foaming additives. I saw an analysis of Red Line's 15W40 (?) diesel oil and it lacked the 10+ ppms of Si which they use as a foam inhibitor.

--- Bror Jace
 
LJ, most of what you say sounds reasonable, but the bottom line is how does M1 automotive 15w-50 actually perform in a motorcycle engine as measured by oil analysis? More specifically, how does it compare in the same fully broken-in engine, under the same conditions, over the same interval, using the same lab, to M1 MX4t? That's what we'd really like to know.

Anything else is just talk.
 
JASO T903 (MA/MB) was created to address these issues. Here are the specs:

1. (T904 friction test specs omitted since the numbers are meaningless without a thorough understanding of T904)

2. Must meet one of the following: API SE, SF, SG, SH, SJ, GF-1, GF-2, ACEA A1, A2, A3, CCMC G-4, G-5.

3. Sulfated Ash: 1.2% (by mass) maximum (ASTM D874)

4. Evap loss: 20% (by mass) max (ASTM D5800)

5. Foaming Tendency (tendency/stability) (ASTM D892):
Seq I - 10/0 max
Seq II - 50/0 max
Seq III - 10/0 max

6. Shear Stability (mm^2/s) (ASTM D6278):
xW-30: 9.0 min
xW-40: 12.0 min
xW-50: 15.0 min

7. HTHS @ 150C (D4683): 2.9min

How do these specs compare to SL, GF-3, ACEA A1/A3, and CI-4?

[ January 05, 2003, 03:04 PM: Message edited by: richard612 ]
 
That minimum of 2.9 on JASO #7 is what one would see in a 5/20 SL oil,,,not in my engine! It will exceed the 4.0 mark or it will not enter the sump!

For the guy who gets on one and rides,no short runabouts the Valvoline VR1 straight 40wt is very hard to beat for a dino oil. The 20/50 is a different package,not up to the task imo.

I see Autozone is now selling a new dino Valvoline 10/40 M/C specific oil for 3.99 per quart. It has around 1100ppm of Zn, wohooo
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The VR1 40wt has around 2100 ppm last I saw,I would use the VR1 20/50 before the new M/C oil and like I said,would not even use it!
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Just my opinions based on over 300k of riding in my life and owning 77 bikes in the past:)

I am not using the VR1 in anything these days in case you are wondering but at 2 bucks a quart,,it will work better than many M/C oils at the Dealer,and also come up shy to some as well.IMO of course
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I have seen those blue camshafts before,ruined cylinder heads,,at others peoples expense though ;)And saw the brand and wt oils that allowed this to happen

[ January 05, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]
 
quote:

Originally posted by dragboat:
That minimum of 2.9 on JASO #7 is what one would see in a 5/20 SL oil,,,not in my engine! It will exceed the 4.0 mark or it will not enter the sump!


I'll second that. In addition a NOACK of 20% is pretty lame.

I'd say the JASO MA spec is useless.
 
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