Motorcycle oil

satterfi · Sep 28, 2002

I don’t think motorcycle specific oils are necessary.

Some M/C specific oils are of such poor quality that they are only good for using as break-in oil,IMO.

It comes down to how you define a quality oil. Redline, Amsoil, M1 and a few others make what I call a quality 10w40. I’d never use a dino 10w40 from any manufacturer in my bikes. I pass on blends because I’m not a big fan of compromising and spending twice as much on full syns is fine with me.

TooSlick · Sep 28, 2002

Satterfi,

Amsoil has taken the friction modifiers out of their regular 10w-40 (AMO) and 20w-50 (ARO) in order to make them work better with wet clutches. They are now both "JASO MA" rated - as you may know this is a test to measure how much torque the oil can transfer under controlled conditions. JASO MA is the highest rating, followed by JASO MB. The other 20w-50 that Amsoil makes (their Series 2000 stuff) still has the friction modifer as part of the additive chemistry and is rated as JASO MB.

So I do think there is something to this friction modifier stuff ....

TooSlick

satterfi · Sep 29, 2002

TooSlick

Good point on the friction modifiers. I didn’t know manufacturers used friction modifiers in 40 and 50 weight oils.

My point was, don’t just run down to the Honda dealer and buy the M/C oil they sell and assume you’re getting a quality oil.

There are plenty of non M/C specific oils that don’t have friction modifiers that I’d use before I’d use any of the oils they sell at my local Honda dealer.

jsharp · Jan 3, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by dragboat:

We used to put some very hard miles on the VR1 in the old WERA Endurance Series. That was back when Bel Ray first came out.There were some GSXR's dribbling in the pits and on the track for that matter with the Belray.Circa 1984
Was thumbing through a friends M/C catalog a while back,man,there are many oils available for them. Even saw a Bardahl oil.

I ran (W)ERA endurance races in the late 70's, early 80's. We used used Union Carbide in our oil injected RD-350 and Belray in an RD with no pump. We used Klotz sythentic in the GPZ-550 and GPZ 1100 we had...

dragboat · Jan 3, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by satterfi:
I don’t think motorcycle specific oils are necessary.

Some M/C specific oils are of such poor quality that they are only good for using as break-in oil,IMO.

It comes down to how you define a quality oil. Redline, Amsoil, M1 and a few others make what I call a quality 10w40. I’d never use a dino 10w40 from any manufacturer in my bikes. I pass on blends because I’m not a big fan of compromising and spending twice as much on full syns is fine with me.

I am not certain some are worthy if being used as a break-in oil

Or a lawn mower in fact. There are a few that would be outstanding in some of these cars we drive though.

dragboat · Jan 3, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by jsharp:

quote:

Originally posted by dragboat:

We used to put some very hard miles on the VR1 in the old WERA Endurance Series. That was back when Bel Ray first came out.There were some GSXR's dribbling in the pits and on the track for that matter with the Belray.Circa 1984
Was thumbing through a friends M/C catalog a while back,man,there are many oils available for them. Even saw a Bardahl oil.

Click to expand...

I ran (W)ERA endurance races in the late 70's, early 80's. We used used Union Carbide in our oil injected RD-350 and Belray in an RD with no pump. We used Klotz sythentic in the GPZ-550 and GPZ 1100 we had...

Another EX-Racer on the forum!

Yep Klotz has some good stuff,,a little over priced but when bought with the good buddy pricing it will get the job done well. 4 cycle and two stroke oils.

My personal favorite is the Castrol R4 5/40 oil FWIW. I might throw some in our hiway commuter automobile for couple of years sometime then do an anayisis

Thats what I would like to do then reallity sinks in

I have a Imported RG 500 Gamma modded to near GP spec "street legal" and a TZ750 Factory Racer still,,I use Phillips Synjex in those but they stay pickled most of the time. They actually need a new home

jsharp · Jan 5, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by dragboat:

I have a Imported RG 500 Gamma modded to near GP spec "street legal" and a TZ750 Factory Racer still,,I use Phillips Synjex in those but they stay pickled most of the time. They actually need a new home

You saved some nice stuff. I wish I had done the same even though we never had anything but production bikes...

DNS · Jan 12, 2003

I emailed Mobil with the following question:
"Is the new mobil 1 15W50 auto oil with supersyn suitable for use in four stroke motorcycle engines which share a common oil source with a wet clutch and transmission? Would the 0W40 auto oil be a possibility?"

The response was:
"Mobil1 15W50 and 0W40 should not be used in wet clutch applications due friction modifiers in the motor oil because of the new API service rating of SL. You would have to use the motorcycle motor oils to ensure that you do not have any wet clutch problems."

dragboat · Jan 13, 2003

A oil bathed clutch only uses the oil to cool the plates and are enclosed for the purpose of keeping the basket assembly out of the elements and to eliminate any hands/fingers in there while running.Also keeps the clutch dust off the right leg.I know several who are still using GTX and we all know it has Moly in the formulation. It might even have a tad bit more than the M1 Supersyn oil. If the clutch is weak it's not going to like a synlube period and or a synlube with Moly but imo the worst that could happen is a guy would have to drain the oil and run the bike until the minor amount of Moly wears off if the clutch slipped with 15/50 Supersyn.I would not think it would take long.

Thing is, ( some ) of the starter motors are fibrous clutch driven,,Mo there would be possibly some bad medicine.Possibly I said

So since when did Amsoil remove FM's from their oil exclusively for the motorycles? I would be interested in knowing what these FM's are or were ?

TooSlick · Jan 13, 2003

Dragboat,

The FM's were removed from the 10w-40 and 20w-50, "ARO" in December of 1998 ....At that time the additive chemistry was changed from SJ/CF to SJ/CH-4 and the level of ZDDP was increased a bit.

Chris · Jan 13, 2003

I was under the understanding that the 10-40 Amsoil was the same whether it was for cars or motorcycles. Same price too.

dragboat · Jan 13, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Chris:
I was under the understanding that the 10-40 Amsoil was the same whether it was for cars or motorcycles. Same price too.

Yep it is per the Amsoil Support line . You don't think I always take things at face value do you?

Tripped up a few here with only a phone call.

The words were" if we did not put the word motorcycle oil on it people would not buy it "

If it is posted,,I check if it smells funny,yep,yep I do

dragboat · Jan 13, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
Dragboat,

The FM's were removed from the 10w-40 and 20w-50, "ARO" in December of 1998 ....At that time the additive chemistry was changed from SJ/CF to SJ/CH-4 and the level of ZDDP was increased a bit.

So the fella on the phone either was not truthfull or does not know the Amsoil products it seems ?

Since Amsoil does not and never have used moly what were those FM's they removed? The term FM can be loosely described it seems .

I will call again tommorrow and try to get someone different on the line to get to the bottom of this because I am a curious type guy.

[ January 13, 2003, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: dragboat ]

L8274 · Jan 14, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by TooSlick:
Dragboat,

The FM's were removed from the 10w-40 and 20w-50, "ARO" in December of 1998 ....At that time the additive chemistry was changed from SJ/CF to SJ/CH-4 and the level of ZDDP was increased a bit.

A few months ago when I was comparing brands after learning here that FM's are used in some oils I called Amsoil and they told me absolutley they never did or will use a Moly type FM if that is what this topic is about. They said Moly was a corrosive.

Is this the FM that was supposed to be removed ? A FM they say was never used ? How many FM's are there if this is not a moly FM ?

Chris · Jan 14, 2003

Does that mean that Redline is rusting all those motors?

BC · Jan 15, 2003

First, I think some of you are missing the point. My owner's manual for my 2000 Honda Foreman 4X4 450 with gear drive, that shares a gearbox with the motor, calls for an SG/SH motor oil that does not contain "moly" or "graphite". Now that pretty much describes "auto" oil. They will tell you at the dealer and from the factory to stay away from synthetic oils.
So, to recap, they will not and by law cannot deny warranty coverage to someone who uses auto oils. I think that probably since some of the Honda cars of the past used motor oil in the manua transmissions that four wheelers are made with some of the same technology.
I've emailed nearly all of the major brand manufacturer's and they basically fall into two catagories, one advises to use their brand of motorcycle specific oil and the other recommends using any of their premium auto oils. Most of the one's who advise using their motorcycle oil's, when questioned, admitted that they are very, very similar to their auto oil.
Not once in the owner's manual, on the website, at the dealer or from the factory have I seen Honda say to use motorcycle specific oil, never once. They have a lot at stake if your bike dies, even if the warranty has run out. You will think their bike is not durable and long lasting. So, they're going to tell you to use the best oil they can recommend. They could care less how much it costs you, but yet they still recommend regular "dino" SG/SH or better oil.

TooSlick · Jan 15, 2003

Dragboat,

Amsoil uses oil soluble types of FM's .... Most of these compounds DON'T show up on oil analysis, as they are part of the basestock blend. These "might" include such compounds as organic fatty acids, amides, high molecular weight organic phosphorus and phosphoric acid esters. One thing you will see if you do a baseline test of the Amsoil gas engine oils is 30-40 ppm of boron, which is considered a FM.

BTW, the Series 2000, 20w-50 is still friction modified, but their original racing oil - "ARO" - is not.

mcmech · Jan 15, 2003

B.C.
As a motorcycle mechanic, I've seen countless Honda ATV's, most with the cheapest oil the owner could find to put in them.
I've drained oil out of them that was so bad you'd swear it was the original oil....I'm talking 15 year old ATV's and the motor purrs.
My point is, Honda's are darn near indestructible and it doesn't matter what oil you use in it.
If you change the oil and filter frequently, it will outlive you and your children.

As far as synthetic oil is concerned, as long as it's well broken in, I'd use it. Especially if you ride it in winter.
I use synthetic in my Honda ATV......it loves it.

I also use motorcycle oil in my Accord 5-speed tranny, for what it's worth.........300K miles with no problems.

[ January 15, 2003, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: mcmech ]

ben walker · Jan 15, 2003

"My point is, Honda's are darn near indestructible and it doesn't matter what oil you use in it."
You got that right. My neighbor has a foreman that has been beat to death by him and his ham fisted kids. It purrs like a kitten and he has never changed the oil in it for the three years I have lived next door to him.

Bror Jace · Jan 16, 2003

Yes, I can just imagine most Honda ATV owners being pretty lax about maintenance on their rides ... and this is a d@mn shame.

Hondas are good machines and just because they are robustly engineered is no excuse for some idiot to mistreat them.

I've had fools on another board ask me why I was so meticulous about my Honda automobile. "It's only a Civic," they'd say. Well, if you equate value with money, then that makes some sense but if you happen to like small cars, appreciate the overall build quality Honda put(s) into their Civic AND you want your vehicle to act/behave like new many years after you bought it, you should take good care of it. It's not hard nor physically demanding. Just takes a bit of thought and minimal effort.

Oh, I forgot, some people view thinking as terribly painful and they avoid it at every turn.

Same applies to their cycles and ATVs, probably even more so. Oil capacities are usually small (a couple quarts) and these toys ain't cheap!

We have a 1983 ATC200E "Big Red" 3-wheeler. Do the math and it's 20 years old this year. Despite the passing of decades, the vehicle looks like it's almost new except for some light surface rust patches on the wheels. It's true, the dude doesn't get ridden much anymore but it did in the first several years of its life when my brother and I were teenagers.

A little Westley's Black Magic on the plastic parts, auto wax on the gas tank and regular oil changes is all it took to keep the machine in nearly-new condition all these years. It takes about 1.5 quarts of oil and has a cone-shaped piece of mesh for an oil filter which does not need to be replaced. An oil change could cost me as little as $1.50 if I used the buck-a-quart stuff.

Currently, I have a blend of Mobil 1 15W50 (Tri-Syn) and (conventional) Mobil 20W50 in the beast. This is the last time I did some home-blending of oil. I changed the oil in February 2002 and will do so again this spring. Probably gonna use Schaeffer 15W40 synthetic blend this time around. Not too expensive and has a strong TBN in case I don't get around to changing it again anytime soon.

The same wasn't true of our ATC90. It was one of the first Honda ATCs Dad bought for baby brother and I when we were just old enough to ride ... sometime in the late 70s. I think he changed the oil once ... but I can't be sure. We rode the supreme $#i+ out of that machine for a few years (especially baby brother) until something broke in the tranny. That was fixed and it was ridden a little more then sold to make way for the 200cc machines, including the 200E which is still with us.

ben wa, I know I've heard the expression "ham fisted" before but I can't be sure I'm interpreting it correctly. Does it mean awkward/clumsy?

--- Bror Jace

Motorcycle oil

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