Losing control of rear end of RWD car in rain

[DaveInLA]

As I was driving up a slightly curvy hill up to my home, I lost control of the rear end of my 1989 BMW 325is. I was completely sober.

It rained in LA yesterday, but when I was coming home late last night, the ground was mostly dry, maybe a little wet. Anyway, I normally shift a little earlier in the wet, but I figured that the ground was dry when I took the car to about 3500 RPM in 2nd gear (shifted from 1st to 2nd at around 2500). At this point, the back end just fishtailed out and scared the **** out of me. The car ended up maybe 135 degrees from the direction I was going (not quite a full 180). During the spin, I really thought I would hit something, but I was lucky to come out of that incident unscathed.

I plan on going to a track in February, which would be my first time. When one starts to feel the rear slip a little, are you supposed to turn the steering wheel in the same direction as the slippage? I've seen some clips of this, and it seems to create a "drift" that's easily corrected. I was foolish enough to simply hit the brakes, which probably made matters worse. I've only been driving RWD for 2-3 years, only a few thousand miles per year, and almost never in the rain.

thanks

 

[Shannow]

RWD, turn in to the skid (like those drift videos).

Find a friendly person with a grass or gravel paddock, and practice practice practice (at the lowest speed possible).

Back in my mis-spent youth, I once had to do two laps of a roundabout to get it off full right lock.

If you are really out of your depth, then BURY the brakes and lock everything up. You will hit something, but at the lowest possible speed.

 

[DaveInLA]

What does "burying" the brakes mean? Slamming the brakes as hard as I can? that's what I did last night. Ugh.

Anyway, if I'm turning right and the rear end kicks out toward the left, I should gently turn the steering wheel to the LEFT, correct?

 

[Shannow]

Correct.

The only way to get a feel is at low speeds, on very slippery surfaces.

As to burying the brakes, one of the advanced driving instructors that I heard speak mad ethe point that if you have well and truly progressed beyond your depth, then scrubbing off speed is the only sensible alternative. And that means locking everything up, at whatever angle of attack you have attained.

Online discussions are not the place to attain driving skills.

 

[1sttruck]

Juts today I was talking to someone who owns a body shop in the Portland, OR area. I commented that rain in SoCal almost seemed like ice storms in other parts of the country, with all of the sporty RWD vehicles, and he said that although things pick up a bit during winter weather the rain is what keeps him in business.

With a RWD plan on using the best tires available, which should include excellent performance in the rain and if needed, on snow and ice.

 

[drm7]

In my early driving days we got a lot of snow and I drove 4cyl rwd cars. I practiced sliding, braking, 180s (forward & backward), etc. Of course none of this was supervised or legal.

I was blessed that I never hurt anyone but I can now handle most any slides. These skills have saved my bacon many times. I plan to take my daughter out in a large empty lot when she gets her license and teach her these skills. Too many kids around here get hurt in wrecks because they can't correct the car.

 

[DJ]

My driving instruction came in the form of a single tire drive gokart my brother had when we were kids. If you could drive that on snow and ice you were doing really well. Since I got rid of my beatyer mid 80s Caprice I have wished I had first taken the wife out to learn to control a car in a slide. My current 96 Caprice with a few tweaks(360hp400tq+ at the flywheel) is not a good candidate and the Roadmaster wagon at 4600+lbs would be a bit much as well as the rear is much heavier than most with actually a tad over 50% weight on it.
These guys are right the best instruction you can get is going to be "controlled" practice.
If you drive the car that little I would bet the tires are old and hard from ozone and that is likely the source of your trouble because RWD worked just fine for decades even on older much less advanced tires.
1sttruck makes a good point on tires too, if you will never need snow/ice traction get a summer only performance tire, and if you see a lot of snow then get a performance tire and a snow tire, much cheaper than insurance deductibles.

 

[JHZR2]

An E30 BMW is far from the optimal inclement weather car. As an IS model, i have to assume that you have the 3.73 LSD. That ratio might be a little jumpy, but not that bad... Id guess tht your tires just plain arent right... bald perhaps?!?

Its good to want to learn how to drive in thsi stuff better. One simple skill that anyone can master, and nobody seems to adhere to is, if its not hot and dry, slow down!

JMH

 

[Shannow]

chas3,
I'm only talking about when the slide is irretrievable, or completely beyond the driver's skill...they've got no control at that point, and whatever they hit, they should be going as slow as possible.

 

[Quattro Pete]

LOL, Pablo! Where did that quote come from? It's a classic.

 

[DaveInLA]

Yes, my car has a 3.73 LSD. The tires are really cheap performance tires (don't know type of season) that still have decent tread on them. I run around 32 psi on them. The rear end of the car has gotten a little squirrelly in the past before in the rain on turns, but I didn't think the road was that wet, and the hill curve wasn't that sharp. I guess I was wrong.

"Can you pinpoint exactly when the fishtail began?"

the whole thing happened so fast, I'm not sure exactly how it all happened. I do know that the rear end went out on me while I was accelerating, and that's when I braked with the clutch down as well (to prevent stalling). I realize now the braking and disengagement of the clutch only made the skid worse, but it began while power was being put at the wheels.

Here's what I've concluded from all this, please let me know if I'm correct. When I begin to feel the rear end slip out on me, I should slightly countersteer so that the front wheels are pointed in the direction of the road. What I am unclear about is whether I let my foot off the gas or keep on accelerating. Logically, I'd think to take my foot off the gas, but I've heard that more power is used to correct oversteer. When I have lost traction, it's usually been in 1st or 2nd gear. I know not to brake or press the clutch down.

Ultimately, I know practice is what I need, but here in LA, at least my parts, there are few wide open parking lots for me to use that don't always have cars in them. The ones that might be available all have concrete parking stumps so they're not as wide open as they appear.

 

[1sttruck]

Limited slip works well on mixed traction surfaces where the slip is momentary, but they tend to break the rear end loose on uniformly poor traction surfaces. Breaking the rear end loose with a limited slip, a lot longer stopping distances with ABS, poor acceleration with traction control, etc., all suggest better tires are needed, maybe better weight distribution, and maybe a bit more finesse with the throttle.

 

[Quattro Pete]

How much did it rain exactly? The roads are usually the most slippery when it rains a little but not enough to wash away all the oils that may have accumulated over the dry period.

I don't have much experience in driving RWD, but I would think that while you counter-steer, you don't want to let off the gas, because letting off the gas shifts weight to the front, so the rear of the car becomes "lighter" thus not allowing it to regain good traction/grip. I'd say keep the foot on the throttle, but like 1sttruck mentioned, it may require some finesse.

 

[keith]

Front wheel drive is far safer for most drivers, most of the time.

I used to drive regularly on snow in my Volvo 740, and motorcycles! All the driver skill in the world becomes useless when traction goes to nothing.

A few years back, I was driving on a Halloween night and heading back home from a business trip. The Interstate exit turned left and the 740 wasn't having that and the rear swung out to the right. I didn't touch the brake and steered into the skid, just like the books say and experience taught me. Then the car passed the slippery patch in the road and the rear wheels grabbed vicously and spun the car in the other direction so fast I never had a chance to steer back the other way. Hello, Armco! Walked back to inspect the road and there was a really slippery patch, probably a trucker overfilled the diesel fuel tank and dropped a few gallons.

Rear wheel drive is great for running the Daytona 500, not so great on unpredictable public roads. From that point on, I only buy FWD or AWD.

There was also one time I dropped my motorcycle on wet leaves. I was doing maybe 5mph and pulling up at a stop sign, and in the blink of an eye the bike was gone. Wet leaves can be as slippery as ice, and I knew that but still got caught out.

If you use the roads for long enough, you'll have a few war stories to share. Getting sideways in a BMW has made you a more aware driver.

 

[XB70]

Several good points have been brought up in previous posts; I'll add what I can.

The best advice I can think of is to be smooth in all of your inputs to the controls.

Driving uphill in a RWD car is better for traction than driving downhill, so you had that in your favor.

Was the shift and throtle application smooth and progressive, or did it lean toward the harsh and abrupt end of the scale?

"When in a spin, both feet in" is what they teach you to do should you completely lose control.

What to do with the gas pedal doesn't have an answer that is applicable 100% of the time. In a FWD car staying on the gas very well might pull you out of the fishtail. The proper procedure in a RWD car usually involves some degree of letting off the gas, but just how much and how quickly depends on the vehicle and the situation. Panicking and yanking off the gas (much less slamming on the brakes) at the onset of a slide will just make worse what likely could've been saved with skillful use of the controls. Remeber, be smooth.

Certain drivetrain configurations are more prone to something called trailing-throttle, or lift-throttle oversteer. This is when lifting off the gas too abruptly causes a sudden weight transfer that unloads the inside rear tire and overloads the outside rear, resulting in at least an attention-grabbing wiggle, and at worst a slide in the rear.

Rear-engined cars such as the Porsche 911 variants, the original VW Beetle and the Corvair are known exhibitors of this behavior. There have been more than a few people whose ability to buy a 911 far exceeded their ability to drive one.

Mid-engined cars are also more likely to do this, though generally to a lesser degree. Again, not all Ferrari wrecks have been because the driver miscalculated braking distances. On a less expensive scale, Fieros and MR2s have been known to exit the pavement in a direction other than head-on.

Even front-engined RWD "normal" cars can do it, (heck, it can be induced in a FWD car on snow at under 10 mph) and this is what I was referring to in my first post. I heard/read that 3-series BMWs were susceptible to trailing-throttle oversteer. Maybe it applies to your generation 3, maybe not. I assume the problem gets worse as the suspension bits wear over the miles.

Enjoy your day at the track! Quite possibly you could learn more about car control in that single day than most people learn in years of driving on the street.

Be smooth!

 

[Audi Junkie]

Don't over-correct.

 

[XB70]

Can you pinpoint exactly when the fishtail began?

Did it occur while you were depressing the clutch pedal, while you were releasing the clutch pedal, or after the clutch was fully engaged?

Based on something I either heard or read about ten years ago, I have a suspicion as to what your answer is, but I'll wait until you reply.

 

[Pablo]

quote:

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Online discussions are not the place to attain driving skills.

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quote:

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A storm blew in with rain and the temp crashed down into the 50's. We are expected to get more than a tenth of an inch of rain, maybe several tenth's. It rained so hard, yesterday that the street got wet. In fact it rained so hard and got so cold that, on the drive home, I had to roll up the window and turn on the w/s wipers several times. One can't be too careful with it's cold and wet out there.

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BiTOG - We are spot on for 2006!!!

 

[robbobster]

Exactly. Don't overcorrect.
When you steer into the skid, remember to straighten the wheel out when the rear starts to regain traction, or else you'll just fishtail back-and-forth, chasing the skid.

 

[MarkC]

You can always stand on the accelerator pedal and turn the opposite direction, hoping to complete a 360, and end up going in the original direction.
I did it once, and it was cool, but...I wouldn't try it again.