SETI Investigating Signal

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I thought we were running our imaginations wild here.
Now you guys want to talk facts and sense? You seem to be very picky with what science-fiction work you want to use as "science"

I guess that "flow equals lubrication" now too...

 

[LoneRanger]

One of the coolest parts of Einstein's Theory of Relativity, if I am drawing from the correct theory for this, is the relationship of time to speed as speed approaches the Speed of Light. All I remember is an analogy that said if you leave Earth in, say, 2020 on a ship that accelerates to 99% of Light Speed or whatever and travels in a huge loop peaking at 99% half way and then slowing down on the way back, when you get back after 1 year's on board time you could be returning in the year 2100 or something. On board time vs Earth time are divergent or something. That kind of fascinates me.

Oh, and what makes gravity? Other than we know there is a relationship to size and/or mass (?...) for example the moon being roughly 1/5 Earth gravity and Jupiter being double or triple or whatever it is. But other than that have we yet determined what creates gravitational force specifically and how would we go about replicating it in a synthetic manner so we could enjoy normal gravity evenly dispersed on board a ship or moon base with out relying on centrifugal force of a spinning section to simulate gravity?

But... all this discussion is really mute because Elon Musk says we're really each just a piece of sophisticated software code in a ginormous version of The Sims (or The Matrix) being run by a vastly superior intelligence.

 

[javacontour]

I think there are two questions here.

The first is what is the probability we are the only intelligent life in the universe? We've seen those numbers based on the numbers of stars and planets we believe are in the "goldilocks zone" from their star.

But the second question, I don't hear anyone mulling is what is the overlap of the intelligent civilizations? I mean, we've only had radio for a little over 100 years.

How long until we off ourselves on this rock? Or until some planet killer asteroid takes us out like has happened before?

Now figure we are not the only ones subject to such dangers and limitations of the rate of technology advance vs life span...

What are the odds that we are alive at the same time as another technologically advance civilization in the universe? Not to mention, having solved the challenges of effectively reaching out to one another in the matter of a lifetime.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I thought we were running our imaginations wild here.
Now you guys want to talk facts and sense? You seem to be very picky with what science-fiction work you want to use as "science"

A Dyson's Sphere is theoretically possible. FTL, probably not. Biggest point against it is that we haven't been visited by alien civilizations and the universe is very big. No FTL would explain it.

 

[Schmoe]

Space Time. In order for us to actually receive a solid signal, wouldn't that source pretty much have to be aimed at Earth? https://briankoberlein.com/2015/02/19/e-t-phone-home/
Signal would be so broken up over that distance, it pretty much would be pink noise. I'm also on the bandwagon that is it REALLY a good idea that we'd want to contact ET's??? I mean, what for? To try and get technology we don't have and do what with it exactly??? Star Trek stuff? Sometimes it's best to leave well enough alone.

 

[Wolf359]

Probably more for pen pal purposes, with no FTL, it's probably unrealistic to visit or if we did, it would take hundreds of years.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Quote:
Where are you getting the antimatter in this universe?


Black holes, where else?

But why ask such a question? Somehow the idea of producing a device not only capable of surrounding the entire star, but also capturing its energy seems possible to you, but harvesting the antimatter raises question? That's funny right there.


Its more than funny. Its disturbing. Proves my point that some people have no innate engineering or scientific sense or ability whatsoever.

Dyson sphere? So these guys think its possible because someone gave it a name? The guy with the snotty accent that builds those overpriced vacuums?

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Quote:
Where are you getting the antimatter in this universe?


Black holes, where else?

But why ask such a question? Somehow the idea of producing a device not only capable of surrounding the entire star, but also capturing its energy seems possible to you, but harvesting the antimatter raises question? That's funny right there.


Its more than funny. Its disturbing. Proves my point that some people have no innate engineering or scientific sense or ability whatsoever.

Dyson sphere? So these guys think its possible because someone gave it a name? The guy with the snotty accent that builds those overpriced vacuums?



There's actually a pretty good wiki article about it. The sphere might be a bit extreme, more like a swarm or a ring to start. The concept has been around since the 60's and even a bit before then.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Quote:
Where are you getting the antimatter in this universe?


Black holes, where else?

But why ask such a question? Somehow the idea of producing a device not only capable of surrounding the entire star, but also capturing its energy seems possible to you, but harvesting the antimatter raises question? That's funny right there.


Its more than funny. Its disturbing. Proves my point that some people have no innate engineering or scientific sense or ability whatsoever.

Dyson sphere? So these guys think its possible because someone gave it a name? The guy with the snotty accent that builds those overpriced vacuums?



There's actually a pretty good wiki article about it. The sphere might be a bit extreme, more like a swarm or a ring to start. The concept has been around since the 60's and even a bit before then.


Dude, you're a real estate broker. I don't have the patience.

Go get a 4 year degree in a scientific area then spend 10-20 years in a scientific field then well talk. I'm disconnected from reality? Ha.

This is the problem. People read something on wikipedia and think that makes them a scientist.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette

Dude, you're a real estate broker. I don't have the patience.

Go get a 4 year degree in a scientific area then spend 10-20 years in a scientific field then well talk. I'm disconnected from reality? Ha.

This is the problem. People read something on wikipedia and think that makes them a scientist.



Just an FYI, I do have an electrical engineering degree and spent several years in IT before going into real estate. Less work and more money. Does that count as a scientific degree?

Lots of assumptions being made here.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The guy with the snotty accent that builds those overpriced vacuums?

Are you honestly saying you have no idea who Freeman Dyson is and have him confused with the vacuum guy?

James Dyson is an designer who builds vacuums, among other things, and has nothing to do with Dyson spheres.

Freeman Dyson is a mathematical physicist who was publishing papers before the vacuum guy was born. The Dyson sphere's physics is quite sound. It's really just an engineering problem, now. Perhaps you and the vacuum guy should get on it.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The guy with the snotty accent that builds those overpriced vacuums?

Are you honestly saying you have no idea who Freeman Dyson is and have him confused with the vacuum guy?

James Dyson is an designer who builds vacuums, among other things, and has nothing to do with Dyson spheres.

Freeman Dyson is a mathematical physicist who was publishing papers before the vacuum guy was born. The Dyson sphere's physics is quite sound. It's really just an engineering problem, now. Perhaps you and the vacuum guy should get on it.

There's a reason why you guys are driving cabs and selling houses. I guess I have to spell out why the dyson thing is so incredibly stupid?

How much energy will it take to manufacture the "thing"
How much energy will it take to errect it?
Where do you get the material? How many thousands of planets do you need to harvest?
I assume its made of plastic and metal?
What happens when a comet or asteroid comes around?

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
The guy with the snotty accent that builds those overpriced vacuums?

Are you honestly saying you have no idea who Freeman Dyson is and have him confused with the vacuum guy?

James Dyson is an designer who builds vacuums, among other things, and has nothing to do with Dyson spheres.

Freeman Dyson is a mathematical physicist who was publishing papers before the vacuum guy was born. The Dyson sphere's physics is quite sound. It's really just an engineering problem, now. Perhaps you and the vacuum guy should get on it.

There's a reason why you guys are driving cabs and selling houses. I guess I have to spell out why the dyson thing is so incredibly stupid?

How much energy will it take to manufacture the "thing"
How much energy will it take to errect it?
Where do you get the material? How many thousands of planets do you need to harvest?
I assume its made of plastic and metal?
What happens when a comet or asteroid comes around?




It's theoretically possible for an advanced civilization on another star system. We're not there yet. Read the theory before you come up with pointless questions that would be answered just by reading. Dyson preferred the term swarm instead of sphere, but the term sphere stuck. You'd need less material for a swarm and you can start like Larry Niven's Ringworld. An actual sphere would be unstable and would probably have to be stronger than any currently known material. Others have done the math on the thickness, you don't need thousands of planets, the theory is based on what's available in the solar system.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
There's a reason why you guys are driving cabs and selling houses. I guess I have to spell out why the dyson thing is so incredibly stupid?

How much energy will it take to manufacture the "thing"
How much energy will it take to errect it?
Where do you get the material? How many thousands of planets do you need to harvest?
I assume its made of plastic and metal?
What happens when a comet or asteroid comes around?


It's no more incredibly stupid than your proposal to use antimatter.

Oh and it's spelled "erect", not errect.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
[

Oh and it's spelled "erect", not errect.


We'll make sure to consult you on spelling issues. Technical stuff is out of the question.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: edhackett
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Cool!

We have no idea who will be receiving our signals in a few hundred or few thousand years.

Imagine them deciphering the 3 stooges tv signals!


Nobody will be receiving our radio or TV signals. They are not strong enough to be detectable in the background noise more than a couple of light years away. The nearest star is about 4 light years away. Unless the signals were broadcast specifically for interstellar communication there is no signal left.
Quote:
Because of this inverse square law, all of our terrestrial radio signals become indistinguishable from background noise at around a few light-years from earth. For a civilization only a couple hundred light-years away, trying to listen to our broadcasts would be like trying to detect the small ripple from a pebble dropped in the pacific ocean off the coast of California – from Japan.

http://zidbits.com/2011/07/how-far-have-radio-signals-traveled-from-earth/

Ed


And, according to Shannon's Information Theory:

http://web.mit.edu/6.933/www/Fall2001/Shannon2.pdf

The "Signal-to-Noise" ratio would be so low that the signal would be obliterated by noise coming in from intervening astronomical objects which create their own random signals.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
There's a reason why you guys are driving cabs and selling houses. I guess I have to spell out why the dyson thing is so incredibly stupid?

The last time I physically drove a taxi was when I was in university as a summer job. Since that's clearly relevant to you, what did you used to do as a summer job in university? I'm not sure I really care, but you seem to think this is important, so I guess we need to get that into the open. As for how stupid the idea is, instead of bothering taxi drivers and realtors about it, contact Freeman Dyson. His contact information is a matter of public record. You can explain to him how stupid the idea is. Bothering taxi drivers and realtors about engineering minutiae is a waste of time. Of course, bothering a mathematical physicist with engineering minutiae is likely to be similarly productive. I don't think any of his papers suggested starting building one tomorrow, or ever, for that matter.

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
How much energy will it take to manufacture the "thing"
How much energy will it take to errect it?
Where do you get the material? How many thousands of planets do you need to harvest?
I assume its made of plastic and metal?
What happens when a comet or asteroid comes around?

I already explained that. Freeman Dyson has mentioned all those problems, and has rightly stated that they are engineering problems. I'm sure he doesn't care in the least. None of those issues are relevant to the concept itself, that one could, theoretically, harvest most of the light energy of a star. If engineers aren't up to the task, that's not the concern of theoreticians.

 

[turtlevette]

You get so indignant. A common characteristic of a theorist? Don't fret, a lot of theorists have minimum wage careers.

You don't see a problem with saying something is theoretically feasable then proclaiming, let the engineers figure out the details?

At first I was joking about the vacuum cleaner guy, but after further thought, I have more respect for him.

 

[cptbarkey]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You get so indignant. A common characteristic of a theorist? Don't fret, a lot of theorists have minimum wage careers.

You don't see a problem with saying something is theoretically feasable then proclaiming, let the engineers figure out the details?

At first I was joking about the vacuum cleaner guy, but after further thought, I have more respect for him.


Hey Ace Troll, why not share your amazing engineering insight versus sounding like a jack-posterior or are you practicing to impress the ladies?

p.s. you might sound clever to yourself, but you are the only audience that is agreeing.

 

[SirTanon]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: spasm3
Cool!

We have no idea who will be receiving our signals in a few hundred or few thousand years.

Imagine them deciphering the 3 stooges tv signals!


Signals we receive today could be billions of years old. If a civilization made a signal billions of years ago, the chance of them still alive would be remote.


The signal they're talking about would be 95 years old, approximately. Why? The target source is 95 light-years away.. meaning that the signal has been traveling for 95 years to get here. The odds are reasonably good that if the civilization made it to a Kardashev Type-I level, they've survived the 95-years since that signal was transmitted.