OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I hope not. That's why I try to respond point-by, in order to address each individual statement with a response so that misunderstanding doesn't happen.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Based on the California scenario this is what is going on right now:
The government mandate 20% of the energy is from renewable (solar, wind, geothermal, hydro), that includes the home roof top solar being subsidized and / or power purchase agreement, etc.
The hydro is a big help, since it is a much larger contributor. There are markets that don't recognize hydro as renewable, which I feel is quite odd.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
EV is federal subsidized at $7500 / car and some people (not all) get additional savings due to low income status.
EV is subsidized here as well. I believe is is around $10,000 when I was looking at the Tesla model S.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Leaf is typically leased at around $200 / month by people commuting 60-80 miles a day, and get to charge at work for about 2-4 hours per day (there are too many EVs), and most importantly, get to ride carpool lane with just the driver. This carpool lane privilege is the reason why people gets EV, not because EV is cheaper to drive or save the earth, free electricity at work is just an icing on the cake.
Ahhh yes, I could certainly see the advantage to that! The DVP (Don Valley Parkway) has those lanes, that are often close to vacant whilst the rest of the traffic is at an almost stand-still.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Sure, gas cost $2.5-3/gal today vs 20c/kwh at lower tier, but it is really the carpool lane sticker that saves people 1 hr of commute time a day that deserves the premium. I would not be surprised if the free charging at work is partly to keep the demand up so solar is not driving the fossil fuel plants out of business.
Nice theory
Gas costs seem to vary wildly state to state. I see it at just over $2.00 in Maryland right now, and just under in Dallas. Some of the other states are more expensive.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
No one is talking about going 100% renewable, because it wouldn't work. Even as liberal as California the government mandate is only 20%, no guaranteed 40c/kwh, and residential is already offering (not mandate) time based rate.
Well, perhaps California isn't talking about it but Denmark has already made that commitment as have other European nations. The problem of course is that it really isn't viable, so they end up buying power out of country via interconnects and paying a premium, which drives up rates. That's how Denmark ended up with the most expensive electricity in Europe with an average rate of $0.45/KWh. Speaking about the situation in my own area, the rate guarantee was not only here in Ontario (our local utility gets a guaranteed $0.42/KWh for their solar farm for the next 20 years) but also in places like Australia, who had similar compensation agreements that ran as high as $0.60/KWh for solar. The idea was that these incentives would aide in the quick adoption/installation of these technologies but of course the side effect was that somebody has to pay for it.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
People who install roof top solar typically only install just enough to cover their higher tier rate (i.e. they only install enough so they are paying the first 200kwh at 16-24c/kwh but not the last 100kwh at 40-60c/kwh, so they install only 100kw on the roof). Even then I still don't see solar panel on most residential roof top.
Because of the price of course. The ROI just isn't there. Solar is a poor generator, wind is significantly better and even it lags the staples by a pretty wide margin.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
My PG&E smart rate plan is around 16c/kwh during normal time and 60c/kwh during smart days from 2-7pm, for 15 smart days per summer. If I am not on Smart rate my flat rate would have been 2c/kwh more, any time of the day every day. This leads me to believe that at some point PGE is paying 60c/kwh during those days. With some used Leaf selling for as low as $7000 here, I would think it make sense to buy and drive a used Leaf, charge at work, and sign up for Smart rate plan, and if you have some money to play with, install a small solar panel on your roof.
They also just build a new gas peaker at Lodi, supposedly with fast ramp up (a couple hours) and around 50% efficiency, at around $1300/kw.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2013/10/131031-flex-power-plants-california/
http://www.powermag.com/topplantslodi-energy-center-lodi-california/?pagenum=2
Sounds like your rates are even higher than mine. We used to pay around $0.07/KWh back in 2006. Peak was around maybe 11 cents? It was not expensive. Even now, the actual cost of electricity is small. It is the "Global Adjustment" on our bills, which is added to the per hour rate, that drives up the cost. This "Adjustment" is what is paying for the Green Energy installs and their excessive compensation. It is a disgusting game of politics with the consumer ultimately footing the bill. When you commit 100 billion you don't have to energy you don't need, somebody has to pay that cost and ultimately it has been passed down onto us. As I said, I'd buy a Tesla Model S in a heartbeat if I was still paying the 2006 rates. Given the cost of gas, the car would pay for itself in short order. It is rather tragic that the government doesn't see this nonsense. They are actually hurting EV sales with their policies.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I hope not. That's why I try to respond point-by, in order to address each individual statement with a response so that misunderstanding doesn't happen.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Based on the California scenario this is what is going on right now:
The government mandate 20% of the energy is from renewable (solar, wind, geothermal, hydro), that includes the home roof top solar being subsidized and / or power purchase agreement, etc.
The hydro is a big help, since it is a much larger contributor. There are markets that don't recognize hydro as renewable, which I feel is quite odd.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
EV is federal subsidized at $7500 / car and some people (not all) get additional savings due to low income status.
EV is subsidized here as well. I believe is is around $10,000 when I was looking at the Tesla model S.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Leaf is typically leased at around $200 / month by people commuting 60-80 miles a day, and get to charge at work for about 2-4 hours per day (there are too many EVs), and most importantly, get to ride carpool lane with just the driver. This carpool lane privilege is the reason why people gets EV, not because EV is cheaper to drive or save the earth, free electricity at work is just an icing on the cake.
Ahhh yes, I could certainly see the advantage to that! The DVP (Don Valley Parkway) has those lanes, that are often close to vacant whilst the rest of the traffic is at an almost stand-still.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Sure, gas cost $2.5-3/gal today vs 20c/kwh at lower tier, but it is really the carpool lane sticker that saves people 1 hr of commute time a day that deserves the premium. I would not be surprised if the free charging at work is partly to keep the demand up so solar is not driving the fossil fuel plants out of business.
Nice theory
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
No one is talking about going 100% renewable, because it wouldn't work. Even as liberal as California the government mandate is only 20%, no guaranteed 40c/kwh, and residential is already offering (not mandate) time based rate.
Well, perhaps California isn't talking about it but Denmark has already made that commitment as have other European nations. The problem of course is that it really isn't viable, so they end up buying power out of country via interconnects and paying a premium, which drives up rates. That's how Denmark ended up with the most expensive electricity in Europe with an average rate of $0.45/KWh. Speaking about the situation in my own area, the rate guarantee was not only here in Ontario (our local utility gets a guaranteed $0.42/KWh for their solar farm for the next 20 years) but also in places like Australia, who had similar compensation agreements that ran as high as $0.60/KWh for solar. The idea was that these incentives would aide in the quick adoption/installation of these technologies but of course the side effect was that somebody has to pay for it.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
People who install roof top solar typically only install just enough to cover their higher tier rate (i.e. they only install enough so they are paying the first 200kwh at 16-24c/kwh but not the last 100kwh at 40-60c/kwh, so they install only 100kw on the roof). Even then I still don't see solar panel on most residential roof top.
Because of the price of course. The ROI just isn't there. Solar is a poor generator, wind is significantly better and even it lags the staples by a pretty wide margin.
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
My PG&E smart rate plan is around 16c/kwh during normal time and 60c/kwh during smart days from 2-7pm, for 15 smart days per summer. If I am not on Smart rate my flat rate would have been 2c/kwh more, any time of the day every day. This leads me to believe that at some point PGE is paying 60c/kwh during those days. With some used Leaf selling for as low as $7000 here, I would think it make sense to buy and drive a used Leaf, charge at work, and sign up for Smart rate plan, and if you have some money to play with, install a small solar panel on your roof.
They also just build a new gas peaker at Lodi, supposedly with fast ramp up (a couple hours) and around 50% efficiency, at around $1300/kw.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2013/10/131031-flex-power-plants-california/
http://www.powermag.com/topplantslodi-energy-center-lodi-california/?pagenum=2
Sounds like your rates are even higher than mine. We used to pay around $0.07/KWh back in 2006. Peak was around maybe 11 cents? It was not expensive. Even now, the actual cost of electricity is small. It is the "Global Adjustment" on our bills, which is added to the per hour rate, that drives up the cost. This "Adjustment" is what is paying for the Green Energy installs and their excessive compensation. It is a disgusting game of politics with the consumer ultimately footing the bill. When you commit 100 billion you don't have to energy you don't need, somebody has to pay that cost and ultimately it has been passed down onto us. As I said, I'd buy a Tesla Model S in a heartbeat if I was still paying the 2006 rates. Given the cost of gas, the car would pay for itself in short order. It is rather tragic that the government doesn't see this nonsense. They are actually hurting EV sales with their policies.
