Brand perception

[pscholte]

Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Redline is not built for everyday use nor is that it's biggest market. Most of their product is targeted at the racer crowd. It's formulated to handle high rpm w/o aeration and to handle fuel dilution as much as possible (many race motors run rich at low speeds).

I really believe that they sell to weekend racers, pro teams, sports car guys that thrash their rides on back roads, boat racers, and all the rest. That's big crowd if you think about all the sanctioned events and all the outlaw street guys. Any marketing to mom and pop for street use is secondary. They don't advertise in Cosmopolitan or Better Homes and Gardens ...

The same market is pitched by Royal Purple, Valvoline VR-1, Joe Gibbs (Driven), and Brad Penn. And of course Mobil1 gets into act through their involvement with BMW clubs and Porsche owners among others. It's not an insignificant market seeing as a lot of these engines get changes after one event. Some after one run.

My buddies Nitro car can go through a drum of Redline oil in a weekend of racing. That's on the extreme end, but they do sell a lot. And he never considers putting it in his trucks (big), tractors, cars or pick-ups. It's not cost effective for daily use and he has access to it at wholesale prices ...

I can't really speak to AmsOil and their strategy ... I know only one user and that's in his Vette. The rest of the stuff in his fleet gets Delo or Rotella because he has it fr the equipment (Const Co) ...

And yet, Redline advertises on their web page their oils for regular BMW's. MB's etc.
If they are for small group of racers then they should advertise for them. As long as they advertise for let's say my BMW (and they do, their 5W30 Euro that "meets or exceeds" LL-04) i will say: they cannot meet approval.
I have worked on oil approvals, and it is several K for company to send sample, and get back certificate.
Companies like Redline, AMSOIl, RP etc. pushed all those stories how getting approval is ridiculously expensive, while somehow some company in middle of Africa manages to do it.


The security certificate on Redline's website shows that they're owned by Phillips 66. Surely Phillips has enough money to pay for the testing.

I just hope that their gear oil and ATF are as good as they're made out to be. Otherwise I wasted money on every fluid except motor oil that's currently in my car.

Originally Posted By: pscholte
As far as I know the formulation has indeed evolved and, on paper at least, maybe for the better BUT it in no way has the mythical qualities you refer to like the GC of the early 2000s. And in my opinion, although Doug down in Oz has some concerning tales to tell about it, it (the original) has served me flawlessly for 11 years (yes, my stash of The Green was THAT large).


The original was a somewhat thick 0W30, right?


Yes it was quite thick. Almost a 40 wt

 

[pscholte]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
Originally Posted By: pscholte
I try to use only the most scientific approach possible. For example I placed original GC in the very top tier because it was made by Elves im der Schwarzwald and I place Petronas there because Cool Tech is a catchy name whether it works or not.


This is probably a common new guy question, but is the current "made in Germany" Castrol different from the mythical German Castrol I'm always seeing mentioned here and on various car forums?

Same formula (have to take into consideration that formula constantly evolves) and it is full synthetic (50%+ PAO). Difference are viscosity modifiers.


I heard rumor of a few esters running around in there but don't have any proof.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
This is probably a common new guy question, but is the current "made in Germany" Castrol different from the mythical German Castrol I'm always seeing mentioned here and on various car forums?

Basically, right now, Castrol has one 0w-30 A3/B4 product in North America, named that for handy reference. Country of origin is immaterial. A lot of grief among DIYers and dealers would have been avoided over the years had said people read labels and understood specifications.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Companies like Redline, AMSOIl, RP etc. pushed all those stories how getting approval is ridiculously expensive, while somehow some company in middle of Africa manages to do it.

That's absolutely true, and I suspect these companies exaggerate heavily. However, there is some mystique about selling a non-certified oil, particularly when one looks at things like GF-5 and reduced HTHS and phosphorus. If they want to sell a non-certified oil, that's perfectly fine. There's no reason to be disingenuous about it, though.

Considering RP, for instance, has an API line, with dexos1 certification, I can't see why they wouldn't get their 0w-40 approved to various Euro standards, rather than just claim a dated ACEA specification. They still have their 5w-40, with the higher sulphur (Synerlec), and they could have that as a recommended yet not formally approved lube, and have the 0w-40 fully approved.

 

[BrocLuno]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
And yet, Redline advertises on their web page their oils for regular BMW's. MB's etc. ... If they are for small group of racers then they should advertise for them...


They do. Web site aside, look at where they run print ads. It's almost all high performance periodicals and performance parts catalogs.

And I never said the racer crowd was small - that's your assertion. I say there are at least a few million weekend racers in all classes, and an untold number of hot engines on the street just in the USA.

Everybody's web site tries to cover all bases ...

Look where they spend their Ad $$ and that will tell you their intended audience. Same for all the other oils on the "list" ...

Redline, RP, VR-1, even Motul 300V are all boutique oils. They are not aimed at engines with OEM warranties (maybe Motul ...). They are aimed at track day cars, drag cars, pulling machines, race boats, race bikes, etc. Entirely different customer mindset

All of the machines I just cited are regularly torn down and inspected. Parts are replaced. The engine guru's notebooks are full of time/speed notes and parts wear or distortion notes. Lifter faces are analyzed, rollers are examined and measured. Rod are measured for compression or stretch. Valve springs are tested and or replaced. And any sign of oil malfunction is known within hours, not 100,000 miles. And the guys that pony up the big $$ for a drum or two of Redline know what works for their combination. You'all are not in that league mostly ...

A crew chief or an owner on a Nitro car could care less than squat what the "web site" says ... It's what the parts tell him. And that's mostly not what gets discussed here. They MAY run a UOA, some do. But most go by visual inspection, specific gravity (fuel dilution), smell and feel, along with what the motor parts are telling him.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: pscholte
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
Originally Posted By: pscholte
I try to use only the most scientific approach possible. For example I placed original GC in the very top tier because it was made by Elves im der Schwarzwald and I place Petronas there because Cool Tech is a catchy name whether it works or not.


This is probably a common new guy question, but is the current "made in Germany" Castrol different from the mythical German Castrol I'm always seeing mentioned here and on various car forums?

Same formula (have to take into consideration that formula constantly evolves) and it is full synthetic (50%+ PAO). Difference are viscosity modifiers.


I heard rumor of a few esters running around in there but don't have any proof.

Considering pour point, I would say more then few esters.

 

[BrocLuno]

I just went back and read the original post and I don't see the type of vehicle in question or the intended use cited. We usually ask those questions before offering an opinion. I understand the concept of "Brand Perception" like green GC, etc. But I don't know what situation the OP is trying to tie this to?

I think I'm crossing wires with some sort of supposed general Harry Homeowner brand mystique or something ...

BITOG'rs are different enough that we are not a "random sample" when offering opinions on oil ...

 

[OldEuroCarLover]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I just went back and read the original post and I don't see the type of vehicle in question or the intended use cited. We usually ask those questions before offering an opinion. I understand the concept of "Brand Perception" like green GC, etc. But I don't know what situation the OP is trying to tie this to?

I think I'm crossing wires with some sort of supposed general Harry Homeowner brand mystique or something ...

BITOG'rs are different enough that we are not a "random sample" when offering opinions on oil ...


I'm not trying to tie it into anything, specifically. I'm just curious as to what people here think/feel about the various brands of motor oils so that I can get an idea of where my own thoughts/prejudices stand in relation. I've already learned quite a bit from this thread. I'm specifically after a non-random sample, and a more educated, or at least focused, opinion.

Before reading on here, I would't have considered Walmart Supertech oil suitable for a 1982 Oldsmobile with rust holes and broken springs, and now I would probably put it in my BMW for 3k miles.

 

[NibbanaBanana]

"The security certificate on Redline's website shows that they're owned by Phillips 66. Surely Phillips has enough money to pay for the testing.

I just hope that their gear oil and ATF are as good as they're made out to be. Otherwise I wasted money on every fluid except motor oil that's currently in my car.

The original was a somewhat thick 0W30, right?"



GM specs 75-85 GL4 for chevy aveo transaxles. Redline is the only manufacturer that produces this grade of gear oil (that I could find).

 

[Yah-Tah-Hey]

Not that much better than Mobil I or any other major brand synthetic oil.

 

[scotthershall]

Interesting topic… I think vehicle owners can be broken down into three general categories, and they all think differently about what kind of oil they use. The brand perception works differently, or doesn't matter, on folks depending where they fall.

1. Folks that don’t know much, or don’t care, and take their car to the quick lube, dealer, or mechanic, and just use whatever they’re sold. Or possibly whatever is cheapest. These folks don’t have a brand perception!

2. Folks that are “car guys/gals” that don’t think too much about oil. They might use whatever their father/grandfather/family member did or does, or who ever sponsors their favorite racing team. Or perhaps they religiously use the OEM/dealer oil thinking that the manufacturer knows best (which most times they do, in my opinion). Not much thought here; brand perception rules but they’re generally using good to great oil.

3. Car guys that are members of this forum or other forums that discuss this stuff. Folks that research what oil they use. All of us here are in this category. We use oil that works for the job whether it’s SuperTech, something new, or our old reliable brand. I think it's a mix of brand perception, manufacture info/specs, anedotal evidence, and factual evidence (oil analysis and filter dissections and all that interesting stuff!) that drive us.

I’ve lurked on this site for years (despite my ultra-low post count - trying to be more active now), and participated in many brand-specific forums. The Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Prius, and Subaru forums didn’t get much into oil specifics, although a few members did. The TDIclub folks certainly got into flame wars over oils, which built part of my perception. So from this background, here are my “brand perceptions:”

1) Top of the line:
Euro brands - Total, Liqui Moly, Pentosin, Motul
“Boutique” brands – Amsoil, Redline
Traditional brands – Mobil, Castrol, Pennzoil, Valvoline

2) Probably good: Shell, Havoline, Kendall, Quaker State, Royal Purple

3) Store brands, probably fine: SuperTech, Coastal (AutoZone), Advance Auto, Napa

4) Off-brand dollar store/convenience store stuff, better than vegetable oil I guess: (I don’t know any of these brands, but you know it when you see it)

These are perceptions based user experience on forums, marketing, and price (Royal Purple is expensive, so it must be good, right?). I know Havoline, Kendall, Shell, and Quaker State all make good oils, but when I’m at the store I usually reach for Mobil 1, Pennzoil Platinum, or Valvoline SynPower over these. I’ve used QSUD before and it’s been fine, and I’m a big fan of NAPA full synthetic when it’s on sale for $2.99/quart (rather than messing around with mail-in rebates).

My 2002 TDI got Mobil 1 5W-40. The 2006 Hyundai Sonata V6 got VWB. The Prius mostly got Mobil 1 with 10k mile intervals, but also some SuperTech full synth with normal 5k OCI. My wife's 2008 Escape 2.4L got VWB then QSUD. My Subaru is between Pennzoil Plantium and Valvoline SynPower and Napa full synth on factory 7.5k OCI. My wife’s CR-V is getting the same. After the 100k mile mark I’ll either stick with PP or Valvoline and extend drain intervals, or switch exclusively to Napa (on sale) or SuperTech full synth and keep the factory intervals. (Not sure if switching to slightly lower quality oil after warranties are up makes sense from a longevity perspective… my guess is engine failure due to lubrication issues is highly unlikely as long as the oil is kept topped up and is changed every now and again.)

Anyway, fun exercise, OP. Thanks for the good post.

 

[BrocLuno]

I notice something here about brand perception. A lot of discussion, mine included, has to do with non-certified oils. The only way to know if they work, is to use them and see. That's a huge leap for some folks...

I put RP in boutique also

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I notice something here about brand perception. A lot of discussion, mine included, has to do with non-certified oils. The only way to know if they work, is to use them and see. That's a huge leap for some folks...


How do you tell if they "work"? What are you looking for?

 

[BrocLuno]

In race motors, I'm looking at wear patterns on bearings, lifters, and gear teeth. On piston tops I look at flame patterns and coking, and I look at skirts to see what patterns the oil has left. Look for stuck rings, broken ring lands, and the like.

For street motors, I look for the same, but more out of curiosity than oil performance. I can never know if the owner was consistent in oil selection and use, so I have no idea what came before that last drain ... And usually there is some underlying cause like coolant in the oil which throws off all the visuals as the lube has truly failed and the parts went south. If it's an old motor, age and miles may have done it.

In any case, for street motors, it's usually not a matter of oil failure, but of lack of oil. As clearances open up, there is often less oil getting to some galleries. Some rods won't have the same volume to throw at the cam, etc. And the giant bug-a-boo is always timing chain failure.

Race motors don't have the same kind of timing set failures. They can fail, but not from age and drying out, or starving from oil. They usually fail because of a defect, or something locked the cam and something had to give. Although higher than needed oil pressure can load the timing set and cam gears excessively and that can be catastrophic ...

And for NibbanaBanana, never fear, if you picked the right Redline lube, your gears will love it. I had to be convinced the hard way. But once I started using their gear lubes (for high HP applications), I never looked back. The breakage ceased - end of story. Their differential lubes are phenomenal

 

[1JZ_E46]

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
And for NibbanaBanana, never fear, if you picked the right Redline lube, your gears will love it. I had to be convinced the hard way. But once I started using their gear lubes (for high HP applications), I never looked back. The breakage ceased - end of story. Their differential lubes are phenomenal

Redline Heavy Shockproof for the win! Spendy but worth it. I use it in my diff and mixed with MT90 in my trans.

 

[OldEuroCarLover]

Originally Posted By: scotthershall
Interesting topic… I think vehicle owners can be broken down into three general categories, and they all think differently about what kind of oil they use. The brand perception works differently, or doesn't matter, on folks depending where they fall.

1. Folks that don’t know much, or don’t care, and take their car to the quick lube, dealer, or mechanic, and just use whatever they’re sold. Or possibly whatever is cheapest. These folks don’t have a brand perception!

2. Folks that are “car guys/gals” that don’t think too much about oil. They might use whatever their father/grandfather/family member did or does, or who ever sponsors their favorite racing team. Or perhaps they religiously use the OEM/dealer oil thinking that the manufacturer knows best (which most times they do, in my opinion). Not much thought here; brand perception rules but they’re generally using good to great oil.

3. Car guys that are members of this forum or other forums that discuss this stuff. Folks that research what oil they use. All of us here are in this category. We use oil that works for the job whether it’s SuperTech, something new, or our old reliable brand. I think it's a mix of brand perception, manufacture info/specs, anedotal evidence, and factual evidence (oil analysis and filter dissections and all that interesting stuff!) that drive us.

I’ve lurked on this site for years (despite my ultra-low post count - trying to be more active now), and participated in many brand-specific forums. The Hyundai Sonata, Toyota Prius, and Subaru forums didn’t get much into oil specifics, although a few members did. The TDIclub folks certainly got into flame wars over oils, which built part of my perception. So from this background, here are my “brand perceptions:”

1) Top of the line:
Euro brands - Total, Liqui Moly, Pentosin, Motul
“Boutique” brands – Amsoil, Redline
Traditional brands – Mobil, Castrol, Pennzoil, Valvoline

2) Probably good: Shell, Havoline, Kendall, Quaker State, Royal Purple

3) Store brands, probably fine: SuperTech, Coastal (AutoZone), Advance Auto, Napa

4) Off-brand dollar store/convenience store stuff, better than vegetable oil I guess: (I don’t know any of these brands, but you know it when you see it)

These are perceptions based user experience on forums, marketing, and price (Royal Purple is expensive, so it must be good, right?). I know Havoline, Kendall, Shell, and Quaker State all make good oils, but when I’m at the store I usually reach for Mobil 1, Pennzoil Platinum, or Valvoline SynPower over these. I’ve used QSUD before and it’s been fine, and I’m a big fan of NAPA full synthetic when it’s on sale for $2.99/quart (rather than messing around with mail-in rebates).

My 2002 TDI got Mobil 1 5W-40. The 2006 Hyundai Sonata V6 got VWB. The Prius mostly got Mobil 1 with 10k mile intervals, but also some SuperTech full synth with normal 5k OCI. My wife's 2008 Escape 2.4L got VWB then QSUD. My Subaru is between Pennzoil Plantium and Valvoline SynPower and Napa full synth on factory 7.5k OCI. My wife’s CR-V is getting the same. After the 100k mile mark I’ll either stick with PP or Valvoline and extend drain intervals, or switch exclusively to Napa (on sale) or SuperTech full synth and keep the factory intervals. (Not sure if switching to slightly lower quality oil after warranties are up makes sense from a longevity perspective… my guess is engine failure due to lubrication issues is highly unlikely as long as the oil is kept topped up and is changed every now and again.)

Anyway, fun exercise, OP. Thanks for the good post.


Thank you for the very thorough response.

It looks, overall, like we have very similar opinions/biases when it comes to oil.

Pentosin and Lubro-Moly are two that I really can't find any justification for, but all along my gut has told me are good oils. I guess that I'm cheap enough to ignore my gut, which is probably a good thing. Lubro-Moly additives are probably better than most, but I really don't know how good their oil is compared to Mobil 1 or some other synthetic. What's most interesting to me is that you have such a similar view on these oils and, like myself, are somewhat likely to just buy NAPA or Walmart synthetic because you know that they're probably perfectly fine. I'm inching closer and closer to using those oils as well. I'll probably end up with a BMW spec LL-01 in my E46, but I'm not so sure I'll be sticking with name-brand synthetics in my Volvo as time goes on.

 

[mark pruett]

Originally Posted By: scotthershall
These are perceptions based user experience on forums, marketing, and price (Royal Purple is expensive, so it must be good, right?).


I suspect that the price is the biggest thing- the OP's list is pretty much broken into price tiers with a few exceptions. Most consumer goods are marketed this way- products that a manufacturer wants to position as the "premium" or "high end" product has to be priced accordingly, or people will look at it cock-eyed, and wonder why if it's so high-end, why is it priced with the middle-of-the-road stuff? They're going to think the marketing is [censored], and that your product is identical to its price-peers.

I think it's because people wrongly assume a relationship between price and cost that doesn't exist. In other words, a product that is priced higher, must necessarily have more expensive ingredients or production processes or something like that. Which is sometimes true, sometimes not, and often even when it is true, it's not true to the extent that the price might lead people to believe. Look at "imported" beers; many are made in the US, in the same breweries as domestic beers. But because they have a Japanese or Dutch name, people are willing to pay a huge premium for them, believing them to be higher quality.

The big question I'd want answered is whether the top tier Euro oils the OP mentioned are thought of as great shakes in Europe, or if they're just run-of-the-mill oils. I suspect the fact that they're imported and expensive makes people think they're better than they probably are.

My long-time brand perceptions have run like this (and there's not a lot of rhyme or reason to it; it was mostly formed as a teenager/young adult):

Top-tier oils: Typically those from what I perceived as dedicated oil companies- Pennzoil, Castrol, Quaker State, Valvoline, etc...
Second tier: Major oil company oils- Mobil, Chevron, Havoline/Texaco, Citgo, Shell, etc...
Third tier: House label oils- Supertech, parts store oils, etc... For some reason, Exxon Superflo was in this category, probably because it was constantly on sale and priced just a hair lower than everything else but the house brand oil.

It doesn't make a lot of sense, especially these days when only Valvoline is independent, and a lot of store-brand oil comes from the big oil companies anyway.

 

[4WD]

That all sounded good until the summary - sounds like a Walmart perspective that ignores what lubes industrial conglomerates use ... The big 3 produce a huge spread of industrial grade lubes ...

 

[OldEuroCarLover]

Originally Posted By: mark pruett
Originally Posted By: scotthershall
These are perceptions based user experience on forums, marketing, and price (Royal Purple is expensive, so it must be good, right?).


I suspect that the price is the biggest thing- the OP's list is pretty much broken into price tiers with a few exceptions. Most consumer goods are marketed this way- products that a manufacturer wants to position as the "premium" or "high end" product has to be priced accordingly, or people will look at it cock-eyed, and wonder why if it's so high-end, why is it priced with the middle-of-the-road stuff? They're going to think the marketing is [censored], and that your product is identical to its price-peers.

I think it's because people wrongly assume a relationship between price and cost that doesn't exist. In other words, a product that is priced higher, must necessarily have more expensive ingredients or production processes or something like that. Which is sometimes true, sometimes not, and often even when it is true, it's not true to the extent that the price might lead people to believe. Look at "imported" beers; many are made in the US, in the same breweries as domestic beers. But because they have a Japanese or Dutch name, people are willing to pay a huge premium for them, believing them to be higher quality.


Indeed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good