Philosophy Behind Extended Euro OCIs

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Euro oil is not any different than the oil used in the USA. Nor are the fuels. The European "driving style" may very well be harder on oil than the "American" driving style of longer trips and relatively low constant power settings needed for driving on the Interstate freeways.

What is different is that the Europeans can be trusted to take their vehicles in for oil changes on schedule, while a substantial chunk of Americans typically will leave their vehicles until either the light comes on, or severely after the manufacturer's recommended interval. The dealers rely upon oil changes as part of their marketing efforts for other maintenance, while such is far less prevalent in Europe. USA dealers and quickie lubes often cannot be even trusted to use the manufacturers' recommended oil or recommend the proper interval, as witnessed by the huge problems encountered with the petrol direct injection engines and intake occlusion caused by improper oil change practices (which seemed to mostly be caused by overly frequent oil changes with cheap oils, sometimes inappropriately substituted for the proper oils by profit-maximizing dealers and quickie lubes!).

As a result, USA OCI's are grossly in excess of what's required (providing that oil is appropriately "topped up" and other maintenance is performed). Europe does not have an epidemic of engine failures or premature engine wear-outs due to their "higher" intervals because people actually adhere to them. Perhaps it is because a car is more of a luxury item in most of Europe, rather than something that most lower-class people in the USA own.
 
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Originally Posted By: rooflessVW
Originally Posted By: Andy636
THERE ARE NO LARGER SUMPS FFS !!!


Maybe not all the bulls*** economy cars you drive in Romania due to tax reasons, but here in the US we get the big powerful engines almost exclusively. The average Japanese/Korean/USA vehicle will have a 4ish quart sump, whereas the typical European car sold here in the US has, on average, at least a 6 quart sump. My two cars take 6.5 and 8.5 quarts respectively.

I have done a THREE GALLON oil change on a GASOLINE European car.


I can tell you the BMW M50 motor (2.0L Inline 6) takes 6.9 quarts (6.5 litres) of oil, happily another litre/quart if you overfill.
Compare that to the 1GR-FE Toyota 4L/4000 V6 in my father's Toyota Prado, which takes 4.75 quarts (4.5 litres) of oil and is ten years newer.

Or compare the little Japanese buzz boxes with a Mercedes or BMW buzz box. Pretty sure the sump is at least 1qt or so larger.

Larger sump means the oil does take longer to warm up; so not as great for short tripping. The bonus, more oil is available to be contaminated, and the larger sump means the oil runs cooler as a whole and shouldn't deteriorate as quickly in use.

The E30 BMW's were the first 3-series to have the Service Indicator lights, using various factors (there's an equation around somewhere) to compute the interval. The factory interval for those was 7,500 miles, same as for the E36's predating BMW Long-Life oils.

We know that the Europeans did get a bit too rambunctious with the intervals for a while, examples include the Audi 5000 diesel, the Peugot-Renault-Volvo (PRV) V6 and Saab's engines of the latter '90s (incl. the GM V6) to name but three. Premature failure or expensive repairs resulted from intervals too long for the type of oil used and driving habits. Even the designs (Saab) of oil systems relative to hot exhausts, turbochargers were to blame.
 
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
I have an interesting question about extended OCIs in European cars. I know the type of oil is different, however...

Are they using longer OCIs because they are taking in account the average lifespan of the engine?

For example BMW knows the car will be most likely scrapped between 200k to 300k miles. You are not taking that Bimmer to 500k miles and beyond.

Therefore the OCIs can be lengthened to allow some wear but still make it acceptable for the average service life of a car.

The same reason we have "lifetime" transmission fluids. Yes, there will be more wear, but if the car is going to be scrapped at 300k, the transmission can make it to 300k without a service, we can make that service optional.

Would love to hear BITOGer thoughts.


I can honestly say "I don't know" a single person who made it to 300K with an automatic transmission that wasn't serviced. I know plenty of people who made it to 300K and beyond but everyone of them serviced their transmissions. I think the target number for a filled for life transmission is a lot lower than 300K miles.
 
What exactly are we calling "extended" OCI's? Just about every vehicle these days has a 15,000km service interval, a couple of exceptions being Mazda (10,000km) and Subaru (12,500km).
 
Baby engines?
My brothers BMW E61 525d made 220K (miles) before battery short circuited and burned car. OCI was done every 10K, always driven to the maximum on HWY's in Bosnia, with speeds exceeding 120mph.
I have seen there A LOT of diesels and gasolines with 200K+ running manufacturer recommended OCI's, and we are talking turbo engines with displacement of 1.6ltr to 2.0ltr. It is rare to see 3.0ltr cars there.
 
Not all people who live in Europe drive Euro cars with big sumps. But they do tend to run ACEA oils with longer drain intervals there.

Member Volodymyr (from Europe) has a 2010 Nissan Qashqai 2.0, running Valvoline SynPower 5W30 (A3/B4,MB 229.5,502.00/505.00)

Originally Posted By: volodymyr

I bought it new and it never consumed any oil (now it has 72'000 km on the clock right now). OD used 5W-40 ELF oil with A3/B4 spec with 15'000 km OCI, once warranty ended I started to use Valvoline SynPower 5W-30 which is a European made version with MB 229.5, A3/B4 spec.....

I know, it is getting older and older and problems may arise but it is phenomenal to me how reliable this thing is. The car is 4WD and it has MR20DE petrol engine......this engine ..... is very simple one: 144 hp out of 2 liters displacement.

I can't say I treat the car gently - it sees sometimes trips across Europe including of course famous german motorways where I drive sometimes 160-170 km/h.............manual specs 30'000 (KM) OCI for normal conditions, 15'000 OCI (KM) for harsh conditions with any ACEA rated oil...
 
My Mercedes C220 holds 6.5 litres, the Volvo 850 6 litres, and the Nissan Expert holds 2.7 litres. The Mercedes has done 315,00km on 15,000km oil changes, clean alloy under the camcover, no idea on the Volvo's history, probably not good. The Nissan has 5w-30 Edge, but don't think I'll push it past 10,000km, that's not a lot of oil for an extended oil change. Euro cars (and bikes) are just made to opperate comfortably at higher speeds for a longer time. The old VW's had maximum and cruising speeds the same (70mph), they were made to run flat out all day. Same as my BMW motorcycle, in the owners manual it gives maximum engine speed, and maximum continuous engine speed, which is higher than it's hp rpm.
 
Originally Posted By: pitzel
Euro oil is not any different than the oil used in the USA. Nor are the fuels. The European "driving style" may very well be harder on oil than the "American" driving style of longer trips and relatively low constant power settings needed for driving on the Interstate freeways.

What is different is that the Europeans can be trusted to take their vehicles in for oil changes on schedule, while a substantial chunk of Americans typically will leave their vehicles until either the light comes on, or severely after the manufacturer's recommended interval. The dealers rely upon oil changes as part of their marketing efforts for other maintenance, while such is far less prevalent in Europe. USA dealers and quickie lubes often cannot be even trusted to use the manufacturers' recommended oil or recommend the proper interval, as witnessed by the huge problems encountered with the petrol direct injection engines and intake occlusion caused by improper oil change practices (which seemed to mostly be caused by overly frequent oil changes with cheap oils, sometimes inappropriately substituted for the proper oils by profit-maximizing dealers and quickie lubes!).

As a result, USA OCI's are grossly in excess of what's required (providing that oil is appropriately "topped up" and other maintenance is performed). Europe does not have an epidemic of engine failures or premature engine wear-outs due to their "higher" intervals because people actually adhere to them. Perhaps it is because a car is more of a luxury item in most of Europe, rather than something that most lower-class people in the USA own.


I think that's a bit stereotypical, people here neglect their cars just as much as anywhere else, i'd like to see any data saying that Europeans take care of their cars better than in the US, and no cars aren't considered a luxury here,

And most people here can afford a car and maintain it, but lots of people choose not to own a car and use public transport instead which is something that America specially lacks, also your driving distances are much longer so a car is almost a neccesity to get around, and also a big reason people choose public transport over ownging a car is ofcourse that our fuel prices are easily twice of what it is in North America.
 
Originally Posted By: pitzel
Euro oil is not any different than the oil used in the USA. Nor are the fuels.


Wrong on both counts.
Oils designed to meet ACEA and European OEM's like VW,BMW, MB, Peugeot etc typically require more shear stable VM's and a higher treat rate in the additive package than an API only counterpart oil. They are also more likely to be synthetic or synthetic blend oils. Even Dexos1/Dexos2 which are both GM and therefore "North American" specifications is for synthetics.

Fuels are also very different in Sulfur levels for gasoline - although that is changing; and some of the performance characteristics. For example in diesel fuels the ignition quality (as measured by cetane number) is 20% higher in Europe. You are also much more likely to see higher levels of detergent in both gasoline and diesel (base detergent levels in fuel doesn't exist in North American Diesel fuel specifications. Fuels in Europe also sometimes contain friction modifiers as well.

All this combined with some of the other comments regarding engine design and usage patterns helps extend oil drains longer. I do agree that in the USA there is a lot of wasted oil that gets changed out too early.
 
Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: pitzel
Euro oil is not any different than the oil used in the USA. Nor are the fuels.


Wrong on both counts.
Oils designed to meet ACEA and European OEM's like VW,BMW, MB, Peugeot etc typically require more shear stable VM's and a higher treat rate in the additive package than an API only counterpart oil. They are also more likely to be synthetic or synthetic blend oils. Even Dexos1/Dexos2 which are both GM and therefore "North American" specifications is for synthetics.

Fuels are also very different in Sulfur levels for gasoline - although that is changing; and some of the performance characteristics. For example in diesel fuels the ignition quality (as measured by cetane number) is 20% higher in Europe. You are also much more likely to see higher levels of detergent in both gasoline and diesel (base detergent levels in fuel doesn't exist in North American Diesel fuel specifications. Fuels in Europe also sometimes contain friction modifiers as well.

All this combined with some of the other comments regarding engine design and usage patterns helps extend oil drains longer. I do agree that in the USA there is a lot of wasted oil that gets changed out too early.


+1
 
Originally Posted By: hpb
What exactly are we calling "extended" OCI's? Just about every vehicle these days has a 15,000km service interval, a couple of exceptions being Mazda (10,000km) and Subaru (12,500km).


I'm thinking 15k miles/25k km or more.

10k miles/16k km is weak.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Baby engines?
My brothers BMW E61 525d made 220K (miles) before battery short circuited and burned car. OCI was done every 10K, always driven to the maximum on HWY's in Bosnia, with speeds exceeding 120mph.


I meant us North Americans are babying our engines, not Europeans.

My question is whether the extended OCI increases wear, however it's deemed acceptable due to the average lifespan of our cars.

For example on BITOG people might say: "Why are you putting the best oil and changing it every 5k in that rusted 200k+ mile beater, you're just going to scrap it in 2 years." I was wondering if European apply the same logic to their cars from the get-go?

Interesting point about the fleet cars BTW.
 
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Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Baby engines?
My brothers BMW E61 525d made 220K (miles) before battery short circuited and burned car. OCI was done every 10K, always driven to the maximum on HWY's in Bosnia, with speeds exceeding 120mph.


I meant us North Americans are babying our engines, not Europeans.

My question is whether the extended OCI increases wear, however it's deemed acceptable due to the average lifespan of our cars.

For example on BITOG people might say: "Why are you putting the best oil and changing it every 5k in that rusted 200k+ mile beater, you're just going to scrap it in 2 years." I was wondering if European apply the same logic to their cars from the get-go?

Interesting point about the fleet cars BTW.


I do not think so. What I found here in the U.S. is that car culture is not as prevailing as in Europe. Yes, there are a lot of enthusiasts, but average person here is much less knowledgable about cars then there. When I moved here I truly understood for the first time definition of driving from point A to point B.
Most people I know, regardless of how long they keep cars always maintain cars to the max. I cannot remember also when was the last time I saw at mechanics I know in Bosnia dino or semi-synthetic oil.
 
Fleet buyers. Simple, less maintenance -less money to be spend. Additionally, the less vehicle spend at the shop the more is on the road. Making money. This practice migrated to the private owners too. People aren't idiots.
Better fuels/oils, roads, moderate climates made it possible. Also (and i know some will disagree) modern Euro drivetrain - 1.5-2.0 litre turbo diesels / petrols are virtually indestructible. When it comes to diesels Asian cars are inferior. That was not the case 25 years ago. It was opposite.
 
Originally Posted By: camrydriver111
Originally Posted By: hpb
What exactly are we calling "extended" OCI's? Just about every vehicle these days has a 15,000km service interval, a couple of exceptions being Mazda (10,000km) and Subaru (12,500km).


I'm thinking 15k miles/25k km or more.

10k miles/16k km is weak.


Fair enough. Longest passenger vehicle OCI I know of here is the new Jaguar XE diesel, with 34,000km service intervals. And I agree with the others who said it's all about fleet sales and lowering the perceived vehicle running costs and downtime. Every few years the mainstream manufacturers seem to push the intervals out a little further, although it's odd how they don't make it consistent across all countries. Guess it's like the 0w20 oil recommendation mainly being in the US.
 
Originally Posted By: BHopkins
I've always been under the impression that Europe encourages longer OCI for environmental reasons. Due to experience of European history, combined with population density, Europe tends to be ahead of North America in environmental controls and regulations. Getting the most possible out of motor oil is one small example.



And there is your winner.
 
Originally Posted By: pitzel
...problems encountered with the petrol direct injection engines and intake occlusion caused by improper oil change practices (which seemed to mostly be caused by overly frequent oil changes with cheap oils, sometimes inappropriately substituted for the proper oils by profit-maximizing dealers and quickie lubes!).


Using improper oil in any vehicle can be an issue, not just GDI, and changing oil in a Direct Injection petrol too often is a problem? Not from everything i've read...



http://www.pecj.or.jp/japanese/overseas/conference/pdf/conference12-19.pdf

from 9/2013

Discussed:

Deposits in GDI vs PFI
IVD and CCD deposits
Effects of engine load on deposits
Effects of fuel and deposit formation
Effects of older oil vs fresh oil
Group II vs III vs IV regading fresh oil and used oil(very interesting page 15 of 20)


These three reasons add to the benefit of shorter OCI with GDI or TGDI:

Greater potential for oil oxidation, compromising the oil’s protection against wear
Greater potential for fuel to mix with the lubricant, thereby increasing the potential for higher levels of acid and sludge
Greater likelihood of increased oil consumption within the engine
 
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