Monopoly and Innovative

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Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
I hate monopoly.

Except when Elon buys himself a Senator and tries to create his own monopoly by lobbying to have ULA's rockets banned?

Actually Space-X was banned from bidding US Air Force contracts until Space-X sued on U.S. Court of Federal Claims and won.

Quote:
SpaceX and the U.S. Air Force will enter mediation later this month to resolve a lawsuit SpaceX filed contesting an $11 billion sole-source contract the Air Force gave United Launch Alliance to produce enough rocket cores to launch dozens of military satellites, according to court documents filed Jan. 13.

The new documents also raise questions about when the Air Force will make its first competitive launch contract award in nearly 15 years.

SpaceX filed a lawsuit April 28 asking the U.S. Court of Federal Claims to void a large portion of the deal, under which the Air Force ordered 36 rocket cores from ULA on a sole-source basis. Both the U.S. Department of Justice, representing the Air Force, and ULA have asked the court to dismiss the case.

In a Jan. 13 order, Judge Susan Braden denied ULA’s motion to dismiss and said SpaceX and the Air Force would begin mediation this month.


Source: http://spacenews.com/spacex-u-s-air-force-to-enter-mediation-over-ula-blockbuy/#sthash.hGMj3cnD.dpuf

Clearly ULA has Federal Government in their pocket, Federal Government doesn't like competition, award all contracts to ULA will allow them to joint ULA(with large bonus) when they retired from government.

Everybody knows this "You scratch my back, I will return you a favor later". Revolving door is well known and used frequently by people in higher up position in Federal government agencies.
 
Wow.

I'm pretty sure I never said contractors didn't overrun. And bringing the Big Dig into this is pretty funny. Did the Big Dig start as a cost plus contract? I think many of the engineering firms did have cost plus contracts. But when I read what you just wrote above, you almost seem like you don't understand the definition of a cost plus contract.

Again - you wrote, and I will quote "Most government contractors (specially defense contractors) are operated with "Cost Plus" contract, whatever the cost is plus a percentage of profit government just paid the bill no question asked."

I contend MOST government contracts are NOT cost plus. I don't work for Boeing, but have have worked a prime (Rockwell in the 1980's) and smaller contractors over the years and the majority of contracts are not cost plus, most are fixed fee. The only hope with overruns is the next contract will be profitable. Often contractors will be driven by extras the Air Force wants later, so more contracts will be let.

I'm not defending cost overruns and our bloated government at all levels. All those projects you list - did they start as cost plus? Maybe some did, the articles don't say. The problem is sometimes the government should just say NO.
 
Military industrial complex runs the country, so it is hardly a surprised that we end up buying tanks that the army doesn't even want to buy and one company having a monopoly to outsource Russian for rocket launch (that ... sounds ... ironic)

I remember reading that Musk went to Russia to buy rockets with a CIA VC investor, and prior to that was "spat on" by one of the Russian head rocket scientist. That's when he decided to build his own modular design (most likely by hiring all the Russian on immigration visa, I personally know a lot of them were already working in the US on the semiconductor industry already).

Regarding to monopoly and innovation: if Musk didn't still get the big billion dollar contract despite his test rocket launch failure, SpaceX would have been out of business by now too. I think the Fed see SpaceX as a way to keep the military industrial complex in check, or if you think conspiracy theory, this administration is trying to root out the influence of the military industrial complex that has been running the nation since the last couple administrations. That's why we see drones and space launch being civilian instead of strictly military these days, as well as cloud computing instead of spending lots of money on dedicated super computers.
 
The only thing I take from this topic is now I know somebody whose paycheck comes directly from military industrial complex. A previous topic made it clear whose livelihood was paid by a utility company.

If nothing else, this place is extremely predictable. It is impossible to have objective or rational discussion around here.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Wow.

I'm pretty sure I never said contractors didn't overrun. And bringing the Big Dig into this is pretty funny. Did the Big Dig start as a cost plus contract? I think many of the engineering firms did have cost plus contracts. But when I read what you just wrote above, you almost seem like you don't understand the definition of a cost plus contract.

Again - you wrote, and I will quote "Most government contractors (specially defense contractors) are operated with "Cost Plus" contract, whatever the cost is plus a percentage of profit government just paid the bill no question asked."

I contend MOST government contracts are NOT cost plus. I don't work for Boeing, but have have worked a prime (Rockwell in the 1980's) and smaller contractors over the years and the majority of contracts are not cost plus, most are fixed fee. The only hope with overruns is the next contract will be profitable. Often contractors will be driven by extras the Air Force wants later, so more contracts will be let.

I'm not defending cost overruns and our bloated government at all levels. All those projects you list - did they start as cost plus? Maybe some did, the articles don't say. The problem is sometimes the government should just say NO.

How did any project start ? Bid Dig and others started with a plan and bidding contest, right ? The lowest bidder with certain qualifications was select to start the project.

When Bid Dig started it was a standard government project and the contractor that won the contract did submit the winning cost ? Then when it is over budget who paid for it ? If Big Dig and other government contracts are not cost plus then the contractor(s) should paid out of their pocket for the billions of cost overrun ? Not a chance.

Boeing has at least 2 divisions, commercial and defense. Did you ever read any report that an commercial airline paid for cost overrun of their orders ? Did you ever hear that Boeing paid for cost overrun with defense contract ?

Do you have any proof that a defense company paid for cost overrun of any contract the last 50 years ?

Did you ever read anywhere that ULA lost 1 penny for launching a US Air Force rocket the last 10 years ? Did ULA report any quarterly lost the last 10 years ? Who paid for $2 billion cost overrun for the USS Ford ? The ship builder/contractor or US Navy ?

The contracts were clearly not the "Cost Plus" at the start of the project, but it is always a cost plus for multi-million(and multi-billion) dollars projects at the end, both contractor and government representative who sign the contract understand that clearly.

Just do few simple searches for these terms "xxx over budget", replace xxx with F22, F35, M1A1 Tank, highway .... you will find ton of them and government(s) always the one who foot the bills, contractors always get full pay that is cost plus.
 
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Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Military industrial complex runs the country, so it is hardly a surprised that we end up buying tanks that the army doesn't even want to buy and one company having a monopoly to outsource Russian for rocket launch (that ... sounds ... ironic)

I remember reading that Musk went to Russia to buy rockets with a CIA VC investor, and prior to that was "spat on" by one of the Russian head rocket scientist. That's when he decided to build his own modular design (most likely by hiring all the Russian on immigration visa, I personally know a lot of them were already working in the US on the semiconductor industry already).

Regarding to monopoly and innovation: if Musk didn't still get the big billion dollar contract despite his test rocket launch failure, SpaceX would have been out of business by now too. I think the Fed see SpaceX as a way to keep the military industrial complex in check, or if you think conspiracy theory, this administration is trying to root out the influence of the military industrial complex that has been running the nation since the last couple administrations. That's why we see drones and space launch being civilian instead of strictly military these days, as well as cloud computing instead of spending lots of money on dedicated super computers.

The first few test rockets were big failures, but somehow they got contract with NASA 8 years ago. This multi-billion contract did save both Space-X and Tesla Motor companies. Without NASA contract both Space-X and Tesla Motor would be out of business 8 years ago. This is a fact nobody can dispute.

Elon Musk acknowledge that, he thought that few days before 2008 Christmas he was loosing both Space-X and Tesla motor companies, because all his own money and some he borrowed was gone.
 
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR

How did any project start ? Bid Dig and others started with a plan and bidding contest, right ? The lowest bidder with certain qualifications was select to start the project.

When Bid Dig started it was a standard government project and the contractor that won the contract did submit the winning cost ? Then when it is over budget who paid for it ? If Big Dig and other government contracts are not cost plus then the contractor(s) should paid out of their pocket for the billions of cost overrun ? Not a chance.

Boeing has at least 2 divisions, commercial and defense. Did you ever read any report that an commercial airline paid for cost overrun of their orders ? Did you ever hear that Boeing paid for cost overrun with defense contract ?

Do you have any proof that a defense company paid for cost overrun of any contract the last 50 years ?

Did you ever read anywhere that ULA lost 1 penny for launching a US Air Force rocket the last 10 years ? Did ULA report any quarterly lost the last 10 years ? Who paid for $2 billion cost overrun for the USS Ford ? The ship builder/contractor or US Navy ?

The contracts were clearly not the "Cost Plus" at the start of the project, but it is always a cost plus for multi-million(and multi-billion) dollars projects at the end, both contractor and government representative who sign the contract understand that clearly.

Just do few simple searches for these terms "xxx over budget", replace xxx with F22, F35, M1A1 Tank, highway .... you will find ton of them and government(s) always the one who foot the bills, contractors always get full pay that is cost plus.


Bid dig? That's a funny typo. You kind of changed the subject, but you'll get no argument from me on most of that. Government is corrupt, companies can be corrupt - but absolutely nothing is worse than when governments and companies work together.

Originally Posted By: Vikas
The only thing I take from this topic is now I know somebody whose paycheck comes directly from military industrial complex. A previous topic made it clear whose livelihood was paid by a utility company.

If nothing else, this place is extremely predictable. It is impossible to have objective or rational discussion around here.


Not sure your post is rational. I don't think Shannow works for the military industrial complex. I know I don't and I never worked for a utility. Who are you speaking of?
 
It's pretty hard to have a rational discussion when one "side" is spewing half thought nonsense...on a good day.
 
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Bid dig? That's a funny typo. You kind of changed the subject, but you'll get no argument from me on most of that. Government is corrupt, companies can be corrupt - but absolutely nothing is worse than when governments and companies work together.

No, I don't change anything. I stay with what I said and it is "Most government contracts are Cost Plus". I have ample evidences to support my claim.

You think that most government contracts are "Not Cost Plus" ? If that is so then provide support document. If you don't have any evidence to support your claim then it is true or not ? ULA was the sole contractor for US Air Force for a decade, but it was not a "Cost Plus" contract, because the term "Cost Plus" wasn't in the contract that ULA signed with US Air Force 10 years ago ?

You still don't think that various government agencies paid for cost overrun of Boston Big Did ? You still think that the contractor(s) paid for $5 billion cost overrun for the wasteful project ? You still think that all the billions dollar over budget for many defense contracts paid for by the defense contractors' pocket ? You still think that the Navy didn't paid $2 Billion cost overrun for USS Ford ?

Do you have any proof for these ?

There isn't any argument here. There wasn't any document to indicate that the contractor(s) paid for the cost overrun for multi-millions projects with Federal and/or state and/or local government.

I ask you the last time, who paid $5 billion over budget for the Boston Big Dig ? The contractor(s) or the Federal and state and local governments ? Isn't this billions dollars project a "Cost Plus" ?

You don't need to reply if you don't have any proof that no government project that was over-budget paid for it by government itself, all over-budget projects were paid for by contractor(s).
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
It's pretty hard to have a rational discussion when one "side" is spewing half thought nonsense...on a good day.

Are you talking about yourself ?

Where in this thread I praise Elon Musk ?

I copied some phrases from the linked article, I can't edit his name out because that is not honest and it can be construed as I have an agenda. Did you read the linked article ? Did I added the name "Elon Musk" where it didn't include in the original article to give him credit in my quotes ?

This thread is to show the benefit of competition(s), with competitors compete for the same business a company has no choice other than innovative in their business practice.

Can you tell me why only now ULA cut some costs by 35% ? Why didn't they try to keep cost down the last 10 years ? Didn't you see the damage of monopoly ?
 
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Pablo
Bid dig? That's a funny typo. You kind of changed the subject, but you'll get no argument from me on most of that. Government is corrupt, companies can be corrupt - but absolutely nothing is worse than when governments and companies work together.

No, I don't change anything. I stay with what I said and it is "Most government contracts are Cost Plus". I have ample evidences to support my claim.

You think that most government contracts are "Not Cost Plus" ? If that is so then provide support document. If you don't have any evidence to support your claim then it is true or not ? ULA was the sole contractor for US Air Force for a decade, but it was not a "Cost Plus" contract, because the term "Cost Plus" wasn't in the contract that ULA signed with US Air Force 10 years ago ?

You still don't think that various government agencies paid for cost overrun of Boston Big Did ? You still think that the contractor(s) paid for $5 billion cost overrun for the wasteful project ? You still think that all the billions dollar over budget for many defense contracts paid for by the defense contractors' pocket ? You still think that the Navy didn't paid $2 Billion cost overrun for USS Ford ?

Do you have any proof for these ?

There isn't any argument here. There wasn't any document to indicate that the contractor(s) paid for the cost overrun for multi-millions projects with Federal and/or state and/or local government.

I ask you the last time, who paid $5 billion over budget for the Boston Big Dig ? The contractor(s) or the Federal and state and local governments ? Isn't this billions dollars project a "Cost Plus" ?

You don't need to reply if you don't have any proof that no government project that was over-budget paid for it by government itself, all over-budget projects were paid for by contractor(s).


I never said many/most/all/a few/none/whatever government contracts are not OVERRUN/OVER BUDGET. I am not disagreeing with you. So cool down. Slow down. I will stick with most .gov contracts are not, on paper, started as, cost plus contracts. You wrote that they are. Now you say if they overrun, the big boys, get paid regardless of what the paperwork said so you semantically call those "cost plus contracts". And in the case of ULA - for sure. Because ULA is essentially an extension of the USA .gov, where budget essentially has no limit.

Please provide proof that MOST .gov contracts awarded on paper are cost plus. I have not seen proof of this. If you prove it to me, then I will gladly eat my words. You made the statement. By scientific and all reasonable discussion rules, you made this contention. Please prove it.
 
Pablo,
pertinent to the discussion, most of my career was under Govt ownership (competetive state owned utilities).

I've spent hundreds of $M of what's essentially the taxpayers money, and cannot recall a single contract that was based on "Cost Plus"...Most of them were 80% fixed items, 15% Schedule of Firm Rates, and maybe 5% cost plus for materials and expenses.

Handfull of contractors had to eat a loss if they bought a job and expected free money to make up for it, a few "didn't make it" afterwards.

"Cost plus" is Jimmy's term for anything that he doesn't understand that isn't Musk...he reckons power stations are cost plus, regardless of what I offer him.
 
Big Dig was done by Bectel (sp?) which incidentally is a 50B+ private company and never had loss in the 50+ year it has been operating.

Out of curiosity, how exactly does a $1B contract end up costing the taxpayer $20B if you insist that on paper it is NOT a cost plus? Are we arguing on the semantics here? If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a swan?
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I think that the OP wanders around in a "Musk for President" T-Shirt.


lol.gif


true
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Big Dig was done by Bectel (sp?) which incidentally is a 50B+ private company and never had loss in the 50+ year it has been operating.

Out of curiosity, how exactly does a $1B contract end up costing the taxpayer $20B if you insist that on paper it is NOT a cost plus? Are we arguing on the semantics here? If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a swan?


It was re the usage of the word..."all"
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
I think that the OP wanders around in a "Musk for President" T-Shirt.


It is sort of funny to watch how he pushes your buttons and how you get suckered into reacting to it.
 
Originally Posted By: Vikas
Big Dig was done by Bectel (sp?) which incidentally is a 50B+ private company and never had loss in the 50+ year it has been operating.

Out of curiosity, how exactly does a $1B contract end up costing the taxpayer $20B if you insist that on paper it is NOT a cost plus? Are we arguing on the semantics here? If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck then it must be a swan?


What's with the focus on Big Dig? What did I write above? Did you even read what I wrote? ugggg! Big Dig engineering contracts were cost plus. But we are not talking about a singular stupidly managed hugely overrun contract. What was written and for the UMPTEENTH TIME "MOST..contracts are cost plus" NOT THEY ARE NOT. And if you want to say they are, then prove it. Period.

I don't think you understand the different types of government contracts.
 
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