Brand perception

Status
Not open for further replies.
Valvoline is a highly regarded brand, specially for their Synpower, Maxlife and VR-1 Products, but sure they have their regular dino oils that are nothing special, but thousands of cars run on nothing but Valvoline bulk dino oil that is offered at their quick oil change places without any issues.

Shell also has the fantastic Helix Ultra which is a VERY good synthetic, ( Pennzoil Ultra Platinum in the US ) afaik all Ferraris come off the line with Helix Ultra, and the Shell Rotella and Rimula oils which again are some of the best Diesel oils.
Shell Helix Ultra 5w40 is about as good as M1 0w40 or Castrol 0w40, and at lest over here in Europe it's cheaper.
 
Well OldEuroCarLover I think that your list is not really all too far from reality. I would move up Valvoline and Quaker State up to the very good list. I would also bring Royal Purple HPS to the top of the very good list. Key part to the Royal Purple part is the HPS version of it. The HPS version if RP is a very strong product that is worthy of that position. The API SN version of RP is fine and good enough but not worthy of the top of the list.

If one looks up UOAs from Valvoline and QS one would find they hold up quite well. Even for the price of eggs Mobil 5K conventional holds up really well too. Truth be told PYB, VWB, and Castrol GTX can all be added to the very good list as well. Like CT8 always says, " today's conventional oils aren't like they were in the 70s and 80s". And he is very correct in that assessment.
 
Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
Originally Posted By: car51
Valvoline and MS5K and M1 are in my "opinion" very good. I know of not many "blends" like MaxLife that are safe to use in new/newer vehicles


I agree. I don't understand the idea behind synthetic blends at all. Something in-between for people who want more than conventional, but aren't willing to buy synthetic? It seems like pure marketing to me.


Because in the USA, almost all "Synthetics" are actually blends. Even Mobil1 may be a blend as their formulations have changed. Same with Amsoil's recent changes. And most of us know it. Redline and Motul (pick the right ones) are what a German would call synthetic.

So buying something that says "blend" is not an issue. It's what the oil does that counts.

If you build bikes and race motors and such, like I have for 50 odd years, you get to know products and what their strengths are. Run a blown alcohol or nitro motor, better buy Redline, and do it by the 55 gallon drum ... Run race bike (2-stroke or 4) better think hard about Motul.

Have over 100,000 miles on a push-rod V8, maybe better step up to HDEO. Boat engines and garden equipment, maybe best to run SAE 30HD.

Then brand comes into the picture. Which brands have held up well in these duty classes? Chevron Supreme has always done exceedingly well in everyday service in huge fleet operations. Not even in your list anywhere ... Havoline has a very strong following and has since the 1960's.

Your list seems like it's about post 2010 cars and drivers. Have a classic anything and I think your list might work, but there might be a lot of alternatives.

And if you have played with real synthetics, you know they can have drain-off issues from lower surface tension. Not an issue in a daily driver mostly, but for an engine that sits for weeks, can be a real bug-a-boo. All kinds of clatter on cold start. Dino oils maintain capillary fill better, but have issues at higher temps. So a hot rod may need a "blend" to help it with the lifestyle and occasional weekend outings
smile.gif
 
Last edited:
Remember guys, this is a thread about brand perception and why certain pre-notions exist, not whether or not the list is accurate.
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
Originally Posted By: car51
Valvoline and MS5K and M1 are in my "opinion" very good. I know of not many "blends" like MaxLife that are safe to use in new/newer vehicles


I agree. I don't understand the idea behind synthetic blends at all. Something in-between for people who want more than conventional, but aren't willing to buy synthetic? It seems like pure marketing to me.


Because in the USA, almost all "Synthetics" are actually blends. Even Mobil1 may be a blend as their formulations have changed. Same with Amsoil's recent changes. And most of us know it. Redline and Motul (pick the right ones) are what a German would call synthetic.

So buying something that says "blend" is not an issue. It's what the oil does that counts.

If you build bikes and race motors and such, like I have for 50 odd years, you get to know products and what their strengths are. Run a blown alcohol or nitro motor, better buy Redline, and do it by the 55 gallon drum ... Run race bike (2-stroke or 4) better think hard about Motul.

Have over 100,000 miles on a push-rod V8, maybe better step up to HDEO. Boat engines and garden equipment, maybe best to run SAE 30HD.

Then brand comes into the picture. Which brands have held up well in these duty classes? Chevron Supreme has always done exceedingly well in everyday service in huge fleet operations. Not even in your list anywhere ... Havoline has a very strong following and has since the 1960's.

Your list seems like it's about post 2010 cars and drivers. Have a classic anything and I think your list might work, but there might be a lot of alternatives.

And if you have played with real synthetics, you know they can have drain-off issues from lower surface tension. Not an issue in a daily driver mostly, but for an engine that sits for weeks, can be a real bug-a-boo. All kinds of clatter on cold start. Dino oils maintain capillary fill better, but have issues at higher temps. So a hot rod may need a "blend" to help it with the lifestyle and occasional weekend outings
smile.gif



Thanks for the long response! There's a lot in here that I had no idea about.

Are the blended synthetic oils you mentioned blends of different grades of synthetic oil, or are they blends of conventional oil and synthetic?

I know that a lot of people do not consider group III oil to be synthetic at all. Is that what you mean? What, in the US, is legally allowed to be called "full synthetic" vs "semi-synthetic" or "synthetic blend"?

I've read a lot of things saying that American synthetic oil isn't really synthetic compared to European standards. But then, after looking more deeply into it, it seems a bit difficult to see what the differences are between the actual oil used to make the final product.
 
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Remember guys, this is a thread about brand perception and why certain pre-notions exist, not whether or not the list is accurate.


Yeah, I got that. but brand loyalty goes with the job at hand. I would never put Redline in a stock OEM street engine. I can't see throwing down $18/L for Motul, except when the engine will die if I don't...

99% of BITOG cars and drivers would be served fine by most major brand oils. The last 1% needs something specific. But, because these 1% motors and cars often carry the refiners, or blenders, logo in big letters; and if they win or do well, they stamp the cache' into the viewers minds.

Race on Sunday, sell on Monday
laugh.gif
A lot of folks want to believe that their bone stock Honda needs a race oil like product. That's Royal Purple's who shtick ...
 
Last edited:
Any name brand is more than adequate with the recommended interval in the owner manual, therefore I don't care for boutique and expensive import.

I used whatever on sale 5W30 in my previous LS400 for more than 380k miles without any engine work, I used many name brand xW40, xW30 and xW20 in my E430 for 180+k miles without any problem, why should I pay more boutique and import brands ?

Probably I am not an oil snob !
 
Interesting list, except that in Euro applications I yet to see UOA that is better then Castrol 0W30/40, Mobil1 0W40, Pennzoil 5W40.
In Euro diesels IMO, Mobil1 5W30 ESP is by far the best oil available.
Liqui Moly? I remember while living in Europ, it was always oil that you get if there is no Castrol, Mobil1, Shell etc. to buy.
Here is the states, many fall on Made in Germany advertising and LM makes that point with huge sign on their bottles, while many of their oils have seriously outdated specifications.
Pentosin is OK< but nothing more or less. For example 5W40 is typical HC oil that is in no way match for let's say Castrol 0W40 if you are using it in Euro gasser.
Redline? Once when they actually get approval from some manufacturer I will say: OK they are good, until then, IMO company of that statue that cannot afford to get approval and shell out several K for it, is hiding something. AMSOIL actually got approval for SOME of their oils, but looking on the paper, they are behind comparable Castrol, Mobil1, Pennzoil Euro.
 
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Any name brand is more than adequate with the recommended interval in the owner manual, therefore I don't care for boutique and expensive import.

I used whatever on sale 5W30 in my previous LS400 for more than 380k miles without any engine work, I used many name brand xW40, xW30 and xW20 in my E430 for 180+k miles without any problem, why should I pay more boutique and import brands ?

Probably I am not an oil snob !


Any name brand synthetic 5W30 in the LS, or any oil? Which LS, by the way? It's always been a great car. I really don't know that you should pay more.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Interesting list, except that in Euro applications I yet to see UOA that is better then Castrol 0W30/40, Mobil1 0W40, Pennzoil 5W40.
In Euro diesels IMO, Mobil1 5W30 ESP is by far the best oil available.
Liqui Moly? I remember while living in Europ, it was always oil that you get if there is no Castrol, Mobil1, Shell etc. to buy.
Here is the states, many fall on Made in Germany advertising and LM makes that point with huge sign on their bottles, while many of their oils have seriously outdated specifications.
Pentosin is OK< but nothing more or less. For example 5W40 is typical HC oil that is in no way match for let's say Castrol 0W40 if you are using it in Euro gasser.
Redline? Once when they actually get approval from some manufacturer I will say: OK they are good, until then, IMO company of that statue that cannot afford to get approval and shell out several K for it, is hiding something. AMSOIL actually got approval for SOME of their oils, but looking on the paper, they are behind comparable Castrol, Mobil1, Pennzoil Euro.


Would you say that Lubro/Liqui Moly is actually worse than what we have readily available--Shell, Castrol, Mobil, etc--or that they want "American" oil just like we want German oil? I've used Liquid Moly just once. I got a big gallon or 5 liter jug for $10 online.

You're right. The approval issue with Redline and Amsoil has always bothered me. I've also seen a few bad UOAs with them.

It's all very confusing.
 
Last edited:
Brand perception is advertising, tradition and emotion.... Most brands offer oils at various levels are performance. People also assume, if a motor oil is GOOD for racing, then is must be GREAT for my DD. There is a reason specs/certs exist...

Honestly, the cheapest oil from the dollar store changed regularly would let the engine last longer than most people's desire to keep it. If not for desire, than likely the chassis or transmission will be the down-fall.

I still have not seen 1 documented engine that has failed because of oil... lack of it and/or improper OCI sure, but not brand.
 
Last edited:
Redline is not built for everyday use nor is that it's biggest market. Most of their product is targeted at the racer crowd. It's formulated to handle high rpm w/o aeration and to handle fuel dilution as much as possible (many race motors run rich at low speeds).

I really believe that they sell to weekend racers, pro teams, sports car guys that thrash their rides on back roads, boat racers, and all the rest. That's big crowd if you think about all the sanctioned events and all the outlaw street guys. Any marketing to mom and pop for street use is secondary. They don't advertise in Cosmopolitan or Better Homes and Gardens ...

The same market is pitched by Royal Purple, Valvoline VR-1, Joe Gibbs (Driven), and Brad Penn. And of course Mobil1 gets into act through their involvement with BMW clubs and Porsche owners among others. It's not an insignificant market seeing as a lot of these engines get changes after one event. Some after one run.

My buddies Nitro car can go through a drum of Redline oil in a weekend of racing. That's on the extreme end, but they do sell a lot. And he never considers putting it in his trucks (big), tractors, cars or pick-ups. It's not cost effective for daily use and he has access to it at wholesale prices ...

I can't really speak to AmsOil and their strategy ... I know only one user and that's in his Vette. The rest of the stuff in his fleet gets Delo or Rotella because he has it fr the equipment (Const Co) ...
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Redline is not built for everyday use nor is that it's biggest market. Most of their product is targeted at the racer crowd. It's formulated to handle high rpm w/o aeration and to handle fuel dilution as much as possible (many race motors run rich at low speeds).

I really believe that they sell to weekend racers, pro teams, sports car guys that thrash their rides on back roads, boat racers, and all the rest. That's big crowd if you think about all the sanctioned events and all the outlaw street guys. Any marketing to mom and pop for street use is secondary. They don't advertise in Cosmopolitan or Better Homes and Gardens ...

The same market is pitched by Royal Purple, Valvoline VR-1, Joe Gibbs (Driven), and Brad Penn. And of course Mobil1 gets into act through their involvement with BMW clubs and Porsche owners among others. It's not an insignificant market seeing as a lot of these engines get changes after one event. Some after one run.

My buddies Nitro car can go through a drum of Redline oil in a weekend of racing. That's on the extreme end, but they do sell a lot. And he never considers putting it in his trucks (big), tractors, cars or pick-ups. It's not cost effective for daily use and he has access to it at wholesale prices ...

I can't really speak to AmsOil and their strategy ... I know only one user and that's in his Vette. The rest of the stuff in his fleet gets Delo or Rotella because he has it fr the equipment (Const Co) ...

And yet, Redline advertises on their web page their oils for regular BMW's. MB's etc.
If they are for small group of racers then they should advertise for them. As long as they advertise for let's say my BMW (and they do, their 5W30 Euro that "meets or exceeds" LL-04) i will say: they cannot meet approval.
I have worked on oil approvals, and it is several K for company to send sample, and get back certificate.
Companies like Redline, AMSOIl, RP etc. pushed all those stories how getting approval is ridiculously expensive, while somehow some company in middle of Africa manages to do it.
 
Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Any name brand is more than adequate with the recommended interval in the owner manual, therefore I don't care for boutique and expensive import.

I used whatever on sale 5W30 in my previous LS400 for more than 380k miles without any engine work, I used many name brand xW40, xW30 and xW20 in my E430 for 180+k miles without any problem, why should I pay more boutique and import brands ?

Probably I am not an oil snob !


Any name brand synthetic 5W30 in the LS, or any oil? Which LS, by the way? It's always been a great car. I really don't know that you should pay more.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Interesting list, except that in Euro applications I yet to see UOA that is better then Castrol 0W30/40, Mobil1 0W40, Pennzoil 5W40.
In Euro diesels IMO, Mobil1 5W30 ESP is by far the best oil available.
Liqui Moly? I remember while living in Europ, it was always oil that you get if there is no Castrol, Mobil1, Shell etc. to buy.
Here is the states, many fall on Made in Germany advertising and LM makes that point with huge sign on their bottles, while many of their oils have seriously outdated specifications.
Pentosin is OK< but nothing more or less. For example 5W40 is typical HC oil that is in no way match for let's say Castrol 0W40 if you are using it in Euro gasser.
Redline? Once when they actually get approval from some manufacturer I will say: OK they are good, until then, IMO company of that statue that cannot afford to get approval and shell out several K for it, is hiding something. AMSOIL actually got approval for SOME of their oils, but looking on the paper, they are behind comparable Castrol, Mobil1, Pennzoil Euro.


Would you say that Lubro/Liqui Moly is actually worse than what we have readily available--Shell, Castrol, Mobil, etc--or that they want "American" oil just like we want German oil? I've used Liquid Moly just once. I got a big gallon or 5 liter jug for $10 online.

You're right. The approval issue with Redline and Amsoil has always bothered me. I've also seen a few bad UOAs with them.

It's all very confusing.


I used Liqui Moly exhaustively 15-18 years ago when Central and Eastern Europe was flooded with fake Castrol, Valvoline and Mobil1. That was kind of safest bet. Of all oils, engines burned LM like crazy. Then I switched to INA (Croatian oil company), and OLMA (Slovenian company) and never burned a drop. Since then I avoid LM. But hey, it is Made in Germany.
As for Made in USA< I never heard in Europe someone going for that, they go strictly for brand.
IMO, Shell/Pennzoil, Castrol, Mobil1, Valvoline is better bet then LM.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Any name brand is more than adequate with the recommended interval in the owner manual, therefore I don't care for boutique and expensive import.

I used whatever on sale 5W30 in my previous LS400 for more than 380k miles without any engine work, I used many name brand xW40, xW30 and xW20 in my E430 for 180+k miles without any problem, why should I pay more boutique and import brands ?

Probably I am not an oil snob !


Any name brand synthetic 5W30 in the LS, or any oil? Which LS, by the way? It's always been a great car. I really don't know that you should pay more.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Interesting list, except that in Euro applications I yet to see UOA that is better then Castrol 0W30/40, Mobil1 0W40, Pennzoil 5W40.
In Euro diesels IMO, Mobil1 5W30 ESP is by far the best oil available.
Liqui Moly? I remember while living in Europ, it was always oil that you get if there is no Castrol, Mobil1, Shell etc. to buy.
Here is the states, many fall on Made in Germany advertising and LM makes that point with huge sign on their bottles, while many of their oils have seriously outdated specifications.
Pentosin is OK< but nothing more or less. For example 5W40 is typical HC oil that is in no way match for let's say Castrol 0W40 if you are using it in Euro gasser.
Redline? Once when they actually get approval from some manufacturer I will say: OK they are good, until then, IMO company of that statue that cannot afford to get approval and shell out several K for it, is hiding something. AMSOIL actually got approval for SOME of their oils, but looking on the paper, they are behind comparable Castrol, Mobil1, Pennzoil Euro.


Would you say that Lubro/Liqui Moly is actually worse than what we have readily available--Shell, Castrol, Mobil, etc--or that they want "American" oil just like we want German oil? I've used Liquid Moly just once. I got a big gallon or 5 liter jug for $10 online.

You're right. The approval issue with Redline and Amsoil has always bothered me. I've also seen a few bad UOAs with them.

It's all very confusing.


I used Liqui Moly exhaustively 15-18 years ago when Central and Eastern Europe was flooded with fake Castrol, Valvoline and Mobil1. That was kind of safest bet. Of all oils, engines burned LM like crazy. Then I switched to INA (Croatian oil company), and OLMA (Slovenian company) and never burned a drop. Since then I avoid LM. But hey, it is Made in Germany.
As for Made in USA< I never heard in Europe someone going for that, they go strictly for brand.
IMO, Shell/Pennzoil, Castrol, Mobil1, Valvoline is better bet then LM.

Have you tried INA Millennium? Real PAO back then. Great stuff.
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Any name brand is more than adequate with the recommended interval in the owner manual, therefore I don't care for boutique and expensive import.

I used whatever on sale 5W30 in my previous LS400 for more than 380k miles without any engine work, I used many name brand xW40, xW30 and xW20 in my E430 for 180+k miles without any problem, why should I pay more boutique and import brands ?

Probably I am not an oil snob !


Any name brand synthetic 5W30 in the LS, or any oil? Which LS, by the way? It's always been a great car. I really don't know that you should pay more.

Originally Posted By: edyvw
Interesting list, except that in Euro applications I yet to see UOA that is better then Castrol 0W30/40, Mobil1 0W40, Pennzoil 5W40.
In Euro diesels IMO, Mobil1 5W30 ESP is by far the best oil available.
Liqui Moly? I remember while living in Europ, it was always oil that you get if there is no Castrol, Mobil1, Shell etc. to buy.
Here is the states, many fall on Made in Germany advertising and LM makes that point with huge sign on their bottles, while many of their oils have seriously outdated specifications.
Pentosin is OK< but nothing more or less. For example 5W40 is typical HC oil that is in no way match for let's say Castrol 0W40 if you are using it in Euro gasser.
Redline? Once when they actually get approval from some manufacturer I will say: OK they are good, until then, IMO company of that statue that cannot afford to get approval and shell out several K for it, is hiding something. AMSOIL actually got approval for SOME of their oils, but looking on the paper, they are behind comparable Castrol, Mobil1, Pennzoil Euro.


Would you say that Lubro/Liqui Moly is actually worse than what we have readily available--Shell, Castrol, Mobil, etc--or that they want "American" oil just like we want German oil? I've used Liquid Moly just once. I got a big gallon or 5 liter jug for $10 online.

You're right. The approval issue with Redline and Amsoil has always bothered me. I've also seen a few bad UOAs with them.

It's all very confusing.


I used Liqui Moly exhaustively 15-18 years ago when Central and Eastern Europe was flooded with fake Castrol, Valvoline and Mobil1. That was kind of safest bet. Of all oils, engines burned LM like crazy. Then I switched to INA (Croatian oil company), and OLMA (Slovenian company) and never burned a drop. Since then I avoid LM. But hey, it is Made in Germany.
As for Made in USA< I never heard in Europe someone going for that, they go strictly for brand.
IMO, Shell/Pennzoil, Castrol, Mobil1, Valvoline is better bet then LM.

Have you tried INA Millennium? Real PAO back then. Great stuff.

Yeah, but MOL did not invest any money in it. Last time I check at gas station in Bosnia it was still MB229.3.
 
I try to use only the most scientific approach possible. For example I placed original GC in the very top tier because it was made by Elves im der Schwarzwald and I place Petronas there because Cool Tech is a catchy name whether it works or not.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: pscholte
I try to use only the most scientific approach possible. For example I placed original GC in the very top tier because it was made by Elves im der Schwarzwald and I place Petronas there because Cool Tech is a catchy name whether it works or not.


This is probably a common new guy question, but is the current "made in Germany" Castrol different from the mythical German Castrol I'm always seeing mentioned here and on various car forums?
 
As far as I know the formulation has indeed evolved and, on paper at least, maybe for the better BUT it in no way has the mythical qualities you refer to like the GC of the early 2000s. And in my opinion, although Doug down in Oz has some concerning tales to tell about it, it (the original) has served me flawlessly for 11 years (yes, my stash of The Green was THAT large).
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Redline is not built for everyday use nor is that it's biggest market. Most of their product is targeted at the racer crowd. It's formulated to handle high rpm w/o aeration and to handle fuel dilution as much as possible (many race motors run rich at low speeds).

I really believe that they sell to weekend racers, pro teams, sports car guys that thrash their rides on back roads, boat racers, and all the rest. That's big crowd if you think about all the sanctioned events and all the outlaw street guys. Any marketing to mom and pop for street use is secondary. They don't advertise in Cosmopolitan or Better Homes and Gardens ...

The same market is pitched by Royal Purple, Valvoline VR-1, Joe Gibbs (Driven), and Brad Penn. And of course Mobil1 gets into act through their involvement with BMW clubs and Porsche owners among others. It's not an insignificant market seeing as a lot of these engines get changes after one event. Some after one run.

My buddies Nitro car can go through a drum of Redline oil in a weekend of racing. That's on the extreme end, but they do sell a lot. And he never considers putting it in his trucks (big), tractors, cars or pick-ups. It's not cost effective for daily use and he has access to it at wholesale prices ...

I can't really speak to AmsOil and their strategy ... I know only one user and that's in his Vette. The rest of the stuff in his fleet gets Delo or Rotella because he has it fr the equipment (Const Co) ...

And yet, Redline advertises on their web page their oils for regular BMW's. MB's etc.
If they are for small group of racers then they should advertise for them. As long as they advertise for let's say my BMW (and they do, their 5W30 Euro that "meets or exceeds" LL-04) i will say: they cannot meet approval.
I have worked on oil approvals, and it is several K for company to send sample, and get back certificate.
Companies like Redline, AMSOIl, RP etc. pushed all those stories how getting approval is ridiculously expensive, while somehow some company in middle of Africa manages to do it.


The security certificate on Redline's website shows that they're owned by Phillips 66. Surely Phillips has enough money to pay for the testing.

I just hope that their gear oil and ATF are as good as they're made out to be. Otherwise I wasted money on every fluid except motor oil that's currently in my car.

Originally Posted By: pscholte
As far as I know the formulation has indeed evolved and, on paper at least, maybe for the better BUT it in no way has the mythical qualities you refer to like the GC of the early 2000s. And in my opinion, although Doug down in Oz has some concerning tales to tell about it, it (the original) has served me flawlessly for 11 years (yes, my stash of The Green was THAT large).


The original was a somewhat thick 0W30, right?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: OldEuroCarLover
Originally Posted By: pscholte
I try to use only the most scientific approach possible. For example I placed original GC in the very top tier because it was made by Elves im der Schwarzwald and I place Petronas there because Cool Tech is a catchy name whether it works or not.


This is probably a common new guy question, but is the current "made in Germany" Castrol different from the mythical German Castrol I'm always seeing mentioned here and on various car forums?

Same formula (have to take into consideration that formula constantly evolves) and it is full synthetic (50%+ PAO). Difference are viscosity modifiers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top