Sick of cable TV expense, what are my options ?

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: 'alarmguy'
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Common consumer protect strips usually do not clip spikes low enough. Two, they don't have indicator LEDs to warn you when one side is no longer protected. Three, much cheaper to buy ONE quality, rated unit, capable of protecting EVERYTHING inside, rather than MULTIPLE consumer-grade units, with various levels of protection & quality, strewn about your house. Four, mounting it on the service box clamps ALL spikes OUTSIDE, before they ever get a chance to travel over your internal house wiring, wrecking havoc. Finally, fifth...when a large enough surge comes through, these may catch fire and explode!

You definitely want that occuring outside!


Sorry but this is where we will have a big difference of opinion and thats ok.

But anyone interested can do their own research, TON information on the internet.
Simply google things like whole house surge suppression, clamping voltage of whole house surge suppressors then do the same for quality plug in suppressors from name brand suppliers like APC, Cyber Power, etc etc. When I say quality, that doesnt mean expensive, name brand suppressors can be found all over the internet at low prices. Meaning I am talking dollars, 7 to 14 dollars.

I think most will find the clamping voltage of plug suppressors are far lower (better) then whole house, you can find pretty much clamping voltages of 300 to 400 on many plug in devices, for whole house it will be more like 400 to 600 with maybe 500 in the middle. But im getting off point, that doesnt matter all that much but it does mean the plug in have an edge. I will say, one reason clamping voltage under 300 is not recommended and even 300 is low, is because the more small low level non harmful surges you are preventing is degrading and reducing the life of the surge suppressor so when really needed it may not be able to handle it.

One thing I will say is having both is the best of all worlds. A whole house suppressor will help protect outside surges from coming in however so will plug in devices, though with the whole house you will have the whole house covered for anything you forget AC units come to mind.

With that said I think plug in suppressors are superior for protecting electronics and here is why.
1. MANY surges, most likely most all surges are created right from inside the house, sometimes on the very same line, like when you turn on the 12 to 15 amp vacuum to vacuum the floor, notice the lights flicker ever so slightly? A surge is created, appliances, washers, dryers, refrigerators, HVAC systems, most surges come from within the home and a whole house will help but a plug in with its lower clamping voltage and most times the plug ins have higher surge capacity (Joules) and protect the product right at the power outlet, so a internal surge from the same circuit is taken out before it gets to your electronics.

2. Inexpensive quality plug in suppressors also have A/C line power noise filters built into them, as this thread is about internet speed and I discussed even simple devices like ferrite noise filters to snap over the low and high power lines of our routers, modems, computers etc these plugin suppressors also have noise filters to filter out AC power line noise.
The cleaner we can make the power, the better for everything electronic, more so modems, routers, TVs, DVD players etc.
Power lines are dirty and noisy not only from outside the home but from all the appliances, TVs, electronics within the home. Again, the plug in suppressor will not only clamp down spikes from other devices on the same line, it will reduce any power line noise those devices are creating.

3. So for me, bottom line, its why I use a plug in surge on the wall and then plug a power strip surge into that. Two lines of defense, two AC power noise filters to not only protect from outside the home but from all the noise and surges from products inside the home.

4. Im not knocking whole house suppressors but I think the proper way to go about this is plug in is first line of defense for the electronics and the one I would recommend to anyone first, with its high joule rating, built in noise suppression protects from all surges and noise, both outside and inside the home, this reduction in noise might give a slight edge to the operation of some devices.
Next line of defense then for me would be a whole house surge to help further protect major systems of the home that do not plug into the wall. Keep in mind, no surge suppressor is going to stop lightning and both types show how much energy they can absorb.
Also, as far as indicator lights, yes, of course the ones I mention have them but with all suppressors, just because the indicator light shows suppression is working and good doesnt mean it can absorb the joule rating of when it was new, meaning it still is absorbing and the light is on but the suppressors degrade protecting the devices they are supposed too and after any given time they are no where near capable of what they were when purchased. With a plug in, you can change them out easy as needed or when replacing a device.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Common consumer protect strips usually do not clip spikes low enough. Two, they don't have indicator LEDs to warn you when one side is no longer protected. Three, much cheaper to buy ONE quality, rated unit, capable of protecting EVERYTHING inside, rather than MULTIPLE consumer-grade units, with various levels of protection & quality, strewn about your house. Four, mounting it on the service box clamps ALL spikes OUTSIDE, before they ever get a chance to travel over your internal house wiring, wrecking havoc. Finally, fifth...when a large enough surge comes through, these may catch fire and explode!

You definitely want that occuring outside!


Sorry but this is where we will have a big difference of opinion and thats ok.
No worries. I like a good discussion.

Quote:
But anyone interested can do their own research, TON information on the internet.
Simply google things like whole house surge suppression, clamping voltage of whole house surge suppressors then do the same for quality plug in suppressors from name brand suppliers like APC, Cyber Power, etc etc. When I say quality, that doesnt mean expensive, name brand suppressors can be found all over the internet at low prices. Meaning I am talking dollars, 7 to 14 dollars.
There is also plenty of Bravo Sierra to be found. Marketers love to scare the bejesus out of consumers so they'll buy "more protection". Just like insurance agents do. This explains the quality-based-on-Joule ratings see in ads: Higher Joules equals 'more better', right? That's like buying an electric motor based on "peak" HP. I'm willing to bet 99.99% of consumers couldn't give you a definition of a Joule. Nor could they explain the technology. I rely on my background as an electrical engineer to weed out the junk from the facts.

Cheap and effective are rarely found together. Just keep in mind how expensive the item is you're protecting; it's replacement cost (or your HO's deductable you'll have to pay....) vs. an inexpensive suppressor.

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I think most will find the clamping voltage of plug suppressors are far lower (better) then whole house, you can find pretty much clamping voltages of 300 to 400 on many plug in devices, for whole house it will be more like 400 to 600 with maybe 500 in the middle. But im getting off point, that doesnt matter all that much but it does mean the plug in have an edge. I will say, one reason clamping voltage under 300 is not recommended and even 300 is low, is because the more small low level non harmful surges you are preventing is degrading and reducing the life of the surge suppressor so when really needed it may not be able to handle it.
You saved me much typing by ending as you did.

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One thing I will say is having both is the best of all worlds. A whole house suppressor will help protect outside surges from coming in however so will plug in devices, though with the whole house you will have the whole house covered for anything you forget AC units come to mind.
Nothing wrong with a "belt & suspenders approach" as long as the "heavy lifting (voltage clamping) is dealt with at the breaker box or meter socket, preferably outdoors.

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With that said I think plug in suppressors are superior for protecting electronics and here is why.
1. MANY surges, most likely most all surges are created right from inside the house, sometimes on the very same line, like when you turn on the 12 to 15 amp vacuum to vacuum the floor, notice the lights flicker ever so slightly? A surge is created, appliances, washers, dryers, refrigerators, HVAC systems, most surges come from within the home and a whole house will help but a plug in with its lower clamping voltage and most times the plug ins have higher surge capacity (Joules) and protect the product right at the power outlet, so a internal surge from the same circuit is taken out before it gets to your electronics.
It depends. Inductive internal loads may generate a back EMF depending upon many factors. My lights don't dim when vacuuming. They do dim in the garage when the 110VAC garage air compressor comes on, but not in the house. Why? Because the garage is on it's own ckt and not mixed, nor fed from the house. Rather, it's fed straight from the main panel, as it should be.

If any appliance and/or motor caused excessive noise & surges, neither UL nor CSA nor any other rating agency would approve it, thus prohibiting its sale. I will add it IS POSSIBLE to buy electrical devices on the internet and at some stores that are made off-shore and carry no UL/CSA rating. Such is our modern age. However, you're taking quite a risk in doing so. If it caused a fire, loss-of-life, etc. and the insurance agency discovered this, they'd likely deny coverage.

In addition, if in-house surges were near the problem some would have you believe, you would readily know as any incandescent bulb would have an incredibly short life span. Further, the same bulb draws a huge Amp load when turned on with a cold filament. The reason is that's when the filament is at its lowest resistance. Per Ohm's Law, current equals Voltage/Resistance. VAC at my house is about 125V. Using a Fluke DVM, the value of R for a GE 150W indoor flood lamp is 7 Ohms. So the instantaneous current flow in Amps is about 18A...just from a light bulb. Rather amazing a tiny, thin, Tungsten filament can survive that, much less 1000's of times. Likewise, how often do you lose a lit bulb just because your HVAC/washer/dryer/water-heater or air compressor, kicks in? Not often...at least I don't. These don't even blow breakers.

The point is all of those devices you listed above are capable of handling any normal switching load from a UL/CSA listed appliance. It's built in. Further, most of these devices have fuses and/or are internaly protected. They have to be to be listed.

So to summarize: Don't lose sleep over internally generated surges.

It's the BIG ones outside you need to think about.

These are BEST stopped outside, at the breaker box or meter socket. Suspended power lines are like antennas and a current will be induced by any dynamic electric field (thunderstorm). Further, have a tree fall on a residential power line or the HV line at the top and all kinds of things, BIG things, can occur. BIG events over a very small span of time (di/dt) results in VERY large surges, spikes, transient events, etc. that can take out a power line transformer before the pole fuse has time to blow. Read this: http://kxan.com/2016/08/12/austin-energy-upgrades-made-after-power-surges-destroy-property/

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2. Inexpensive quality plug in suppressors also have A/C line power noise filters built into them, as this thread is about internet speed and I discussed even simple devices like ferrite noise filters to snap over the low and high power lines of our routers, modems, computers etc these plugin suppressors also have noise filters to filter out AC power line noise.
To save time and stay focused, I'll skip noise filtering.

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The cleaner we can make the power, the better for everything electronic, more so modems, routers, TVs, DVD players etc. Power lines are dirty and noisy not only from outside the home but from all the appliances, TVs, electronics within the home. Again, the plug in suppressor will not only clamp down spikes from other devices on the same line, it will reduce any power line noise those devices are creating.
Minimizing stray noise, especially from digital ckts., is always a good idea. However, ALL power lines are neither "dirty" nor "noisy". Again, it depends. Also remember there is either a linear or switching PS, for many electric & electronic home devices to function: IC's don't operate well with 125VAC! Don't forget about RFI either! (Both beyond discussion here...)

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3. So for me, bottom line, its why I use a plug in surge on the wall and then plug a power strip surge into that. Two lines of defense, two AC power noise filters to not only protect from outside the home but from all the noise and surges from products inside the home.
See above.

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4. Im not knocking whole house suppressors but I think the proper way to go about this is plug in is first line of defense for the electronics and the one I would recommend to anyone first, with its high joule rating, built in noise suppression protects from all surges and noise, both outside and inside the home, this reduction in noise might give a slight edge to the operation of some devices.
Next line of defense then for me would be a whole house surge to help further protect major systems of the home that do not plug into the wall. Keep in mind, no surge suppressor is going to stop lightning and both types show how much energy they can absorb.
As explained above, you've got this backward IMHO. Anything > 600VAC needs to be stopped from even entering your house. THAT'S the first line of defense: At the breaker box AND it's ground. The SECONDARY LOD can be at the device itself.

I'm willing to bet if you remove several AC outlets in your house, you'd find the electrician used the push-in-tabs, not the screws. Further, note that the bare copper ground wire only has a screw. Think about it....

Further, there's only so much Voltage house wiring (Romex) will withstand before it arcs over and starts vaporizing copper. Same goes for both A/C outlets and wall switches. There is a reason for the 600VAC number spec'd in UL-1449, 3rd edition. Point being the former are all risk for an overvoltage condition. Thus THEY need protection, even with nothing plugged in.

We do 100% agree that nothing will save you from a direct or very close lightning strike. Are bets are off then....

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Also, as far as indicator lights, yes, of course the ones I mention have them but with all suppressors, just because the indicator light shows suppression is working and good doesnt mean it can absorb the joule rating of when it was new, meaning it still is absorbing and the light is on but the suppressors degrade protecting the devices they are supposed too and after any given time they are no where near capable of what they were when purchased. With a plug in, you can change them out easy as needed or when replacing a device.

If one LED or indicator light is out, then that protection ckt has failed and the device needs to be replaced. Regarding degradation effects over time, again it depends. Per above, how many light bulbs are you replacing? An incandescent filament is FAR, FAR more fragile than an appropriately-rated MOV. The later is designed to handle multiple transients over time. The former not so much. Finally, no quality device would ever contain just one MOV. More like three or more in parallel.

In the 30+ years I've lived in my Tx house, I've witnessed LOTS of thunderstorms. I installed a panel surge arrestor during the mid-90's. One LED is out I recently noticed, so the whole unit needs to be replaced. I've never lost anything at all due to a surge. Perhaps I'm lucky? I do have a large Panamax rack unit for the AV equipment. Nicely built and well thought out. It's very handy for the 12VDC trigger ckt and time-delay characteristics in that at switch-on, the power amplifiers turn on last and at switch-off, they turn off first. This surpresses loudspeaker transients.

Years ago, I performed some extensive power line quality tests using a Fluke 43B Power Quality Analyzer at various locations. My own power (at that time) was quite clean as the 43B will do a FFT to the first 20 terms or so. Some AC wave distorsion was noted, but it was far from a triangle wave. It will also measure & plot in-rush current in mSec, max, min., etc. I'll post a plot if I locate it in the stack-of-stuff.

I'd of bought it if not for the price (~$3500).

Thanks for a good discussion. This will be a good source of information for other BITOG'ers.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: 'alarmguy'
Many times I have had a whole house surge in my hands, only to put it back on the shelf at Home Depot and Lowes, also on line. Yet, I do have soooo many on my appliances and walls in the house the whole house is most likely protected, everything is time, maybe Ill get to it one day. I have them on everything, refrigerator, microwave, washing machine! and every outlet that has an electronic on it.
Computers, TV s actually get two suppressors. 1 Wall one with a "power strip" type plugged into the Wall One.


Common consumer protect strips usually do not clip spikes low enough. Two, they don't have indicator LEDs to warn you when one side is no longer protected. Three, much cheaper to buy ONE quality, rated unit, capable of protecting EVERYTHING inside, rather than MULTIPLE consumer-grade units, with various levels of protection & quality, strewn about your house. Four, mounting it on the service box clamps ALL spikes OUTSIDE, before they ever get a chance to travel over your internal house wiring, wrecking havoc. Finally, fifth...when a large enough surge comes through, these may catch fire and explode!

You definitely want that occuring outside!


^^^^^ I think this is where we got off track. My conversation was about people having issues with getting the most out of the internet speed they were paying for and somehow it grew into whole house vs plug in surge suppressors which is not what this thread is about.
I instructed people to clean up the mess around the modems/suggested placement of each device, suggested ferrite snap on filters, suggested a plug in wall surge suppressor with an additional corded powerline surge suppressor. This Anyone interested in listening can read through my previous posts.
Good brands can be APC, Cyberpower, Belkin, Triplight as well as others. This suggestion is about an overall plan to clean up the slop of a mess I see in most homes regarding placement of the modem/router and tangle of wires around them, it is also based on every workday experience with people complaining why their wifi cameras go down and horrible connection speeds/latency/range etc on what otherwise is fairly expensive speed they are paying for.

I cant stress enough that I do not agree with you when it comes to the above subject, a whole house supressor will do nothing for the subject of cleaning up your internet speed/wifi range etc and anyone can make their own decisions on reading the posts previous to this one.
Ill stick to my previous posts in this thread, without repeating to keep it simple and expand on a few things, its up to anyone else if they care of follow my advice or not. I dont care, for the record, some do, it works for them and they thank me.

(btw I like debating and just discussing too so dont read this wrong)

Homes are FULL of transient power lines surges and the power in many homes CAN be noisy. It is these people who have an electrical issue that they do not know of that my suggestions will help.

Any high amp device turning on creates a small surge, all modern devices are made to handle these surges but, over time can "wear" them down, individual surge suppressors will help prevent this when, way more so in a home where something is not functioning exactly as designed and out of "spec" worn out older high amp device.

Every high amp device turning on in your home creates a surge, an improperly working one, even a higher surge, this will take a toll, over time, on more delicate electronics. HOWEVER with that said, these surge suppressors also help reduce some power line noise that MAY becoming from another power device in the home.
As homes age, devices age, blowers in HVAC systems, compressors can create power line noise, and that Microwave you have? Good god not everything works perfect as they age and a certain percentage of people will have issues, from line nose, my suggestions will help, a whole house surge suppressor will not.

Im sorry to hear your vacuum doesnt make your lights give a split second dim, others will know what I mean, throw a 12 plus amp vacuum or motor on the same line as a light bulb of a 15 or 20 AMP line, click it on and off, after that dim comes a small surge on that line, a plug in surge will be more effective at reducing noise and a small spike near your modem/router etc, then a whole house surge protector.

Again, my suggestions are about getting the most out of the internet speed you are paying for, somehow we got into protecting homes from outside power surges, sorry, Im trying too and been successful at cleaning up peoples connections, wiring and noise around their modems and routers for best speed and range. A lot of noise is created within a home and small surges abound, not damaging surges.

You state, you yourself use a $500.00 Power Line Conditioner for your home entertainment system so I think maybe we are not that far apart but if so, thats ok too, we can only speak of what works for us.

One thing that puzzles me, you keep mentioning the "lights" on your whole house surge suppressor and I am not sure why, any good plug in suppressor also shows a proper working suppressor on the power side and proper ground common side.
The whole house suppressors I saw have one light for each of the 2 - 120 lines in your breaker box. But he we go hijacking this guys thread. Anyway, as I said in past posts, if anyone is inclined to install a whole house suppressor BY ALL MEANS DO SO, I may get to it one day now that I am thinking about it again but with that said we will disagree as I still think important to have individual plug in suppressors near important devices suchs as modems/routers, as much power line issues can come from within.

 

[sleddriver]

As an engineer, I'm looking at the big picture of the electrical distribution system, both inside & outside the home. So naturally, I expanded the topic. You were coming from a different direction, namely maximizing internet speed & range and minimizing noise, from digital sources. Like mounting a modem/router behind a large digital TV.

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I cant stress enough that I do not agree with you when it comes to the above subject, a whole house supressor will do nothing for the subject of cleaning up your internet speed/wifi range etc and anyone can make their own decisions on reading the posts previous to this one.
I don't recall stating it would. Simply that it will protect these devices from power line surges, & spikes as well as the rest of electrical appliances. I addressed a larger Circle of Concern.

Unfortunately some consumer-level electronics equipment is poorly built to simply meet a price point. It may cause enough noise on its own to even effect itself! It happens. The true arbiter is an instrument like the Fluke 43B.

In your example of your lights dimming when your vac is turned on. That isn't due to a surge, but rather to a momentary sag in AC voltage avail at that socket. As current is pulled to drive the load, voltage will be dropped over any wiring faults, such as poor quality sockets and the use of push-in terminals to name but a few. Lots here depends on the quality of the wiring connections, how loads are distributed across both hot lines, gauge of the copper wiring & it's topology.

In wiring a new house, it is advisable to have a dedicated power line for modems, routers, switches, etc. run all the way to the breaker box. It's also highly recommended to use a quality outlet such as spec, commercial, industrial or hospital (isolated gnd) AND only use the screws. "Consumer" grade electrical outlets are of very poor quality. Next time you're in the box store, wander over there and compare & contrast. Finally, my microwave has it's own dedicated ckt.

I congratulate you on helping your customers realize benefits from their present installations. I always did the same for mine as well. I wanted to solve problems for them that stumpted others. That set me apart from the competition. I've witnessed plenty of bad wiring jobs myself.

Don't remember paying near that much 20-something years ago for the Panamax. I did get it wholesale from a distributer I did business with though. As mentioned, I'm able to remotely turn it on via a DC trigger voltage from a SS pre-amp.

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One thing that puzzles me, you keep mentioning the "lights" on your whole house surge suppressor and I am not sure why, any good plug in suppressor also shows a proper working suppressor on the power side and proper ground common side.The whole house suppressors I saw have one light for each of the 2 - 120 lines in your breaker box.


Re: Lights. These indicator lights refer to the status of each protection ckt, wired to each of the two hot wires (black) found in residential houses. The sum of these two hot lines is how you are able to get 220VAC which runs HVAC (indoor & outdoor), electric water heaters, elec. stove, and elec dryers (no gas in my house so everything is electric). This is still single-phase.

I've not seen a light per branch line (2-120??), as a whole-house device connects on the upstream (buss) side of the breakers, not the downstream (branch) side. Thus, breakers are protected as well.

Finally, I haven't looked for WH protectors at a box store. When I bought mine decades ago, you had to go to an electrical supply house(Grainger, City, Dealers, Crescent) to even find someone who knew what you're talking about. Pre-internet days. Leviton, Square-D, Siemens, Intermatic, etc. all made them, but consumers didn't have any idea what they were.

Mine looks somewhat like this Square D HEPD80 unit shown below. Just two lights, one for each HOT leg. Mounts on the side of the breaker box instead of taking up buss space. $80 on Amazon. Not bad.

 

[alarmguy]

Pretty much that is the photo that I thought you would show me. A plug in suppressor shows the same thing, actually it show more, it also shows properly working ground.

AS far as wiring in a new home, well, new homes are pretty much built the same as most other things, the average consumer buys a home from a production builder with to them what appears as the most features at lowest cost and highest profit for the builder.

Anyway, As it is apparent, I believe in filters and suppressors and have no problem with a whole house, I also believe redundant protection at the outlet, heck, I even have one on my washing machine, as a surge protector on all major devices will also help reduce the effect that device may have on the household electric system.

AS far as your statement = "In your example of your lights dimming when your vac is turned on. That isn't due to a surge, but rather to a momentary sag in AC voltage avail at that socket"

You are exactly right, that momentary sag is ALWAYS followed by a surge. Electricity rushing back to fill that void (for lack of better words)

 

[wander2039]

Just signed up for cable and probably will never go back. Nice to watch something that isn't complete [censored], one-sided news, etc etc. This new provider has a lot better line up than TWC. But I guess we're lucky in our area, $135 for cable and gig-internet.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: Eric Smith
Just signed up for cable and probably will never go back. Nice to watch something that isn't complete [censored], one-sided news, etc etc. This new provider has a lot better line up than TWC. But I guess we're lucky in our area, $135 for cable and gig-internet.



That's a decent price. I'm considerably more than that. Looking at ways to "cut the cord" a year or so down the road.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: CKN

Just signed up for cable and probably will never go back. Nice to watch something that isn't complete [censored], one-sided news, etc etc. This new provider has a lot better line up than TWC. But I guess we're lucky in our area, $135 for cable and gig-internet.



That's a decent price. I'm considerably more than that. Looking at ways to "cut the cord" a year or so down the road. Don't be sure about never going back. Escalation in your price with all providers, cable, satellite, etc., is one thing you can count on.