Sorry for the slight detour, but regarding the excess weight comments, I'm 100% with you guys, I want LIGHTER. MUCH LIGHTER. I really like my '00 Roadking but I have to admit I dread getting into a parking space or driveway where god forbid I have to back the bike up. Any incline, dirt, oil, etc on the pavement and I feel like a total spaz cuz I can't move it. And I'm not even physically challenged (5'10", physically fit). You guys have that problem? I feel the weight in corners and braking too but at a standstill is where it really pi**** me off.
2017 Harley Davidson Milwaukee-Eight 107
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That's where the problem is, parking lots, drive ways, tight quarters at slow speeds. On the road my Rushmore Ultra is like riding a light bike on a rail. You can really fling it around. You think you are riding a light bike with lots of power. but when you are moving it around at a standstill, it's a beast. I had an 00 Glide and this bike feels, rides much lighter and easier.
My money is also on the EPA as to why they are building a multiple valve motor. Will it be direct injection?
I really like the Twin cooled aspect and have felt no desire to remove the cat. When the cat motors first came out there were serious heat problems and guys were gutting the cats and putting true duels to fight the heat. Guess that's why they came up with the twin cooled motor. In warm weather it also shuts down the rear cyl to cut down on the heat. You can turn it on or off. It works but the idle does not sound good...like a Harley.
My money is also on the EPA as to why they are building a multiple valve motor. Will it be direct injection?
I really like the Twin cooled aspect and have felt no desire to remove the cat. When the cat motors first came out there were serious heat problems and guys were gutting the cats and putting true duels to fight the heat. Guess that's why they came up with the twin cooled motor. In warm weather it also shuts down the rear cyl to cut down on the heat. You can turn it on or off. It works but the idle does not sound good...like a Harley.
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Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
Harley hasn't really been into making performance motors. What they sell is a base platform on which you can build. Hence the Screaming Eagle line of performance products that just happen to be sold by Harley, conveniently thru Harley dealers.Nowadays it's been harder for all mfgrs to be able to build bikes that meet the EPA'S rules,and gives the end user the performance they want straight out of the box. So that being the case Harley probably thought, we'll build this new motor ,then zing the customer for a few hundred clams to make it run right, and everyone will be happy. Instead buyers of the new motor will be stuck with a bad dog with no teeth, thanks to the EPA. It will be just a matter of time before they pass laws that will prevent anyone from selling tuners for any brand of bike. Unless it's documented that it won't be used on the street. Those EPA guys want to breath clean air more then anyone I know.,,,
I agree but I would add to your statement it's harder for all mfgrs to be able to build air cooled bikes that meet the EPA's rules and give the end user the performance they want straight out of the box.
I think manufacturers are meeting new emissions requirements and giving performance but they have to go full liquid cooled to get it done.
Harley hasn't really been into making performance motors. What they sell is a base platform on which you can build. Hence the Screaming Eagle line of performance products that just happen to be sold by Harley, conveniently thru Harley dealers.Nowadays it's been harder for all mfgrs to be able to build bikes that meet the EPA'S rules,and gives the end user the performance they want straight out of the box. So that being the case Harley probably thought, we'll build this new motor ,then zing the customer for a few hundred clams to make it run right, and everyone will be happy. Instead buyers of the new motor will be stuck with a bad dog with no teeth, thanks to the EPA. It will be just a matter of time before they pass laws that will prevent anyone from selling tuners for any brand of bike. Unless it's documented that it won't be used on the street. Those EPA guys want to breath clean air more then anyone I know.,,,
I agree but I would add to your statement it's harder for all mfgrs to be able to build air cooled bikes that meet the EPA's rules and give the end user the performance they want straight out of the box.
I think manufacturers are meeting new emissions requirements and giving performance but they have to go full liquid cooled to get it done.
Originally Posted By: gman2304
When the EPA regs finally force Harley to go totally liquid cooled, and it will happen, it will be a sad day in Mudville. But, that's progress
.
"Progress"
When the EPA regs finally force Harley to go totally liquid cooled, and it will happen, it will be a sad day in Mudville. But, that's progress
"Progress"
The only thing water cooling does is make the motor run at a given temperature ,so they can count on how much emissions is given off by the motor. The EPA could care less how well the motor runs, as long as the numbers given for certification, are consistent. Heat given off by a car, truck , bus, RV never comes in direct contact with the operators or passengers. Motorcycles don't have that luxury. Add the catalytic converter into the equation, and now you have multiple heat sources from which there's no place to hide. Being most riders ride their bikes during warm weather, the problem appears to get more uncomfortable as the season goes on. I can't believe a vehicle used for only a small part of the year, for alot less miles then the family truckster, causes as much of a pollution problem as the way bigger number of big V-8 powered cars and trucks being used as everyday transportation, every day of the year. Wouldn't limiting car mfgrs to only building 4 cylinder 100 HP motored vehicles, reduce pollution alot more then going after leisurely used vehicles?.,,,
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
All the mfgrs do that right now. They build bikes that run and can pass EPA rules. It's just that the heat these bikes give off make it hard for the people that have to ride them, cannot be altered in a way to deal with it. It's not just Harley's that make heat. A byproduct of cooling down the motor is added performance. You will never here anyone say, "it runs too good", after a tuner was installed.,,
No, that's not the case...except for the ones selling antiquated throwbacks to 1950. There is a reason most motorcycles now feature liquid cooling!
All the mfgrs do that right now. They build bikes that run and can pass EPA rules. It's just that the heat these bikes give off make it hard for the people that have to ride them, cannot be altered in a way to deal with it. It's not just Harley's that make heat. A byproduct of cooling down the motor is added performance. You will never here anyone say, "it runs too good", after a tuner was installed.,,
No, that's not the case...except for the ones selling antiquated throwbacks to 1950. There is a reason most motorcycles now feature liquid cooling!
Originally Posted By: MoreCowbellAz
Sorry for the slight detour, but regarding the excess weight comments, I'm 100% with you guys, I want LIGHTER. MUCH LIGHTER. I really like my '00 Roadking but I have to admit I dread getting into a parking space or driveway where god forbid I have to back the bike up. Any incline, dirt, oil, etc on the pavement and I feel like a total spaz cuz I can't move it. And I'm not even physically challenged (5'10", physically fit). You guys have that problem? I feel the weight in corners and braking too but at a standstill is where it really pi**** me off.
My wife certainly agrees. The biggest reason she rides a Honda PC800 instead of a Kawasaki Concurs 1000 is the ~100lb weight difference. Even her Pacific Coast is heavier than she likes, and that is 200+lbs lighter than a Road King.
Sorry for the slight detour, but regarding the excess weight comments, I'm 100% with you guys, I want LIGHTER. MUCH LIGHTER. I really like my '00 Roadking but I have to admit I dread getting into a parking space or driveway where god forbid I have to back the bike up. Any incline, dirt, oil, etc on the pavement and I feel like a total spaz cuz I can't move it. And I'm not even physically challenged (5'10", physically fit). You guys have that problem? I feel the weight in corners and braking too but at a standstill is where it really pi**** me off.
My wife certainly agrees. The biggest reason she rides a Honda PC800 instead of a Kawasaki Concurs 1000 is the ~100lb weight difference. Even her Pacific Coast is heavier than she likes, and that is 200+lbs lighter than a Road King.
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
All the mfgrs do that right now. They build bikes that run and can pass EPA rules. It's just that the heat these bikes give off make it hard for the people that have to ride them, cannot be altered in a way to deal with it. It's not just Harley's that make heat. A byproduct of cooling down the motor is added performance. You will never here anyone say, "it runs too good", after a tuner was installed.,,
No, that's not the case...except for the ones selling antiquated throwbacks to 1950. There is a reason most motorcycles now feature liquid cooling!
That reason is they can't figure out how to make a air cooled motor pass the EPA's restrictions. Funny , Harley has been able to do it. And they do make both water and air cooled motors. Antiquated throwbacks to the '50's, still outsell the latest and greatest from Japan. How do you explain that?.,,
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
All the mfgrs do that right now. They build bikes that run and can pass EPA rules. It's just that the heat these bikes give off make it hard for the people that have to ride them, cannot be altered in a way to deal with it. It's not just Harley's that make heat. A byproduct of cooling down the motor is added performance. You will never here anyone say, "it runs too good", after a tuner was installed.,,
No, that's not the case...except for the ones selling antiquated throwbacks to 1950. There is a reason most motorcycles now feature liquid cooling!
That reason is they can't figure out how to make a air cooled motor pass the EPA's restrictions. Funny , Harley has been able to do it. And they do make both water and air cooled motors. Antiquated throwbacks to the '50's, still outsell the latest and greatest from Japan. How do you explain that?.,,
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
All the mfgrs do that right now. They build bikes that run and can pass EPA rules. It's just that the heat these bikes give off make it hard for the people that have to ride them, cannot be altered in a way to deal with it. It's not just Harley's that make heat. A byproduct of cooling down the motor is added performance. You will never here anyone say, "it runs too good", after a tuner was installed.,,
No, that's not the case...except for the ones selling antiquated throwbacks to 1950. There is a reason most motorcycles now feature liquid cooling!
Liquid cooling and air cooling are rough contemporaries in terms of when they came out. So stop with the silliness about being out of date or antiquated technology. Nothing wrong with the simplicity of air cooling in itself.
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
All the mfgrs do that right now. They build bikes that run and can pass EPA rules. It's just that the heat these bikes give off make it hard for the people that have to ride them, cannot be altered in a way to deal with it. It's not just Harley's that make heat. A byproduct of cooling down the motor is added performance. You will never here anyone say, "it runs too good", after a tuner was installed.,,
No, that's not the case...except for the ones selling antiquated throwbacks to 1950. There is a reason most motorcycles now feature liquid cooling!
Liquid cooling and air cooling are rough contemporaries in terms of when they came out. So stop with the silliness about being out of date or antiquated technology. Nothing wrong with the simplicity of air cooling in itself.
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
The only thing water cooling does is make the motor run at a given temperature ,so they can count on how much emissions is given off by the motor.
Liquid-cooling allows the engine mfrs to build to much closer tolerances for the above reason, allowing them to make more power (and last longer). It also reduces the dependency on needing to use fuel as coolant, reducing consumption and emissions (two items in govt' cross-hairs, notably emissions when it comes to bikes). Also, the fact of wrapping the engine in a liquid "blanket" helps to reduce noise/sound, another target of bureaucrats. So, while air cooling is wonderful for its simplicity (a not insignificant advantage it must be said), it is inferior by practically every other measure... Surely you and everyone else on this board knows this... Much as it pains some, the future will be liquid-cooling for all IC bike engines...
The only thing water cooling does is make the motor run at a given temperature ,so they can count on how much emissions is given off by the motor.
Liquid-cooling allows the engine mfrs to build to much closer tolerances for the above reason, allowing them to make more power (and last longer). It also reduces the dependency on needing to use fuel as coolant, reducing consumption and emissions (two items in govt' cross-hairs, notably emissions when it comes to bikes). Also, the fact of wrapping the engine in a liquid "blanket" helps to reduce noise/sound, another target of bureaucrats. So, while air cooling is wonderful for its simplicity (a not insignificant advantage it must be said), it is inferior by practically every other measure... Surely you and everyone else on this board knows this... Much as it pains some, the future will be liquid-cooling for all IC bike engines...
I think what really razzes people is that the future will not be dictated by the consumer or market demands, but by the government. That certainly rubs a man like me with libertarian leanings the wrong way. Especially when the government bureaucrats are often completely clueless about the technology they are trying to regulate. Remember at one time, the head of the NHTSB suggested that seat belts be mandatory on motorcycles.
Originally Posted By: Mik
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
The only thing water cooling does is make the motor run at a given temperature ,so they can count on how much emissions is given off by the motor.
Liquid-cooling allows the engine mfrs to build to much closer tolerances for the above reason, allowing them to make more power (and last longer). It also reduces the dependency on needing to use fuel as coolant, reducing consumption and emissions (two items in govt' cross-hairs, notably emissions when it comes to bikes). Also, the fact of wrapping the engine in a liquid "blanket" helps to reduce noise/sound, another target of bureaucrats. So, while air cooling is wonderful for its simplicity (a not insignificant advantage it must be said), it is inferior by practically every other measure... Surely you and everyone else on this board knows this... Much as it pains some, the future will be liquid-cooling for all IC bike engines...
While water cooling has been in use for over 100 years, it by itself does not make more power or lower emissions. Technology has made today's motors what they are. Better oils help motors last longer then even 50 years ago. Water jackets are what helps muffler motor sounds. It doesn't prevent them from happening inside the motor. Exhaust systems still allow more noise to be emitted from a car, then internal motor noise ever will. Lean running car motors will still give off more heat then motors that run as intended. Larger then before radiators and fans help disparate heat in a car in a way that's not practical on motorcycles. Sure some have them, but the riders still feel the unwanted heat . Some to the point of getting burned by it.,,
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
The only thing water cooling does is make the motor run at a given temperature ,so they can count on how much emissions is given off by the motor.
Liquid-cooling allows the engine mfrs to build to much closer tolerances for the above reason, allowing them to make more power (and last longer). It also reduces the dependency on needing to use fuel as coolant, reducing consumption and emissions (two items in govt' cross-hairs, notably emissions when it comes to bikes). Also, the fact of wrapping the engine in a liquid "blanket" helps to reduce noise/sound, another target of bureaucrats. So, while air cooling is wonderful for its simplicity (a not insignificant advantage it must be said), it is inferior by practically every other measure... Surely you and everyone else on this board knows this... Much as it pains some, the future will be liquid-cooling for all IC bike engines...
While water cooling has been in use for over 100 years, it by itself does not make more power or lower emissions. Technology has made today's motors what they are. Better oils help motors last longer then even 50 years ago. Water jackets are what helps muffler motor sounds. It doesn't prevent them from happening inside the motor. Exhaust systems still allow more noise to be emitted from a car, then internal motor noise ever will. Lean running car motors will still give off more heat then motors that run as intended. Larger then before radiators and fans help disparate heat in a car in a way that's not practical on motorcycles. Sure some have them, but the riders still feel the unwanted heat . Some to the point of getting burned by it.,,
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2007
- Messages
- 5,294
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Remember at one time, the head of the NHTSB suggested that seat belts be mandatory on motorcycles.
How could anyone be that stupid and still be able to tie their own shoes in the morning?
Remember at one time, the head of the NHTSB suggested that seat belts be mandatory on motorcycles.
How could anyone be that stupid and still be able to tie their own shoes in the morning?
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I think what really razzes people is that the future will not be dictated by the consumer or market demands, but by the government. That certainly rubs a man like me with libertarian leanings the wrong way. Especially when the government bureaucrats are often completely clueless about the technology they are trying to regulate. Remember at one time, the head of the NHTSB suggested that seat belts be mandatory on motorcycles.
The problem is, "we the people" are the government, through voting, we allow it to happen.
We do have choices but so much of the public is uneducated and unable to understand that government creates problems, not solve problems. Every time they vote, they vote for the person who puts on the best show, they never vote on a candidates record, that takes to much work. We become a lazy nation, one who thinks magically, government is going to take care of them. However, we are the government, there is no such thing as government money, government has no money, government only spends money it takes out of your paycheck.
We had a choice a few months back, someone who would have slashed all retarded overblown tax payer funded agencys, including slashing the EPA by 50% or more. But the nation didnt vote for him. Only when (and it WILL happen) we have a Greece type situation will things straighten out, you just can NOT spend over 150,000,000 dollars (one hundred fifty million) more a week then you make to pay your bills. We have become so lazy, that we are allowing, right now, this type of borrowing because we are to lazy to tough it out. Now up to 19 TRILLION in loans and never mind the mess the active chart shows, its ten times worse but no one cares, well, the young will one day care.
Click here for the proof, I want to know how we are going to solve this Here is the proof, no one asking how to fix it, of course not (wont play on apple devices)
I think what really razzes people is that the future will not be dictated by the consumer or market demands, but by the government. That certainly rubs a man like me with libertarian leanings the wrong way. Especially when the government bureaucrats are often completely clueless about the technology they are trying to regulate. Remember at one time, the head of the NHTSB suggested that seat belts be mandatory on motorcycles.
The problem is, "we the people" are the government, through voting, we allow it to happen.
We do have choices but so much of the public is uneducated and unable to understand that government creates problems, not solve problems. Every time they vote, they vote for the person who puts on the best show, they never vote on a candidates record, that takes to much work. We become a lazy nation, one who thinks magically, government is going to take care of them. However, we are the government, there is no such thing as government money, government has no money, government only spends money it takes out of your paycheck.
We had a choice a few months back, someone who would have slashed all retarded overblown tax payer funded agencys, including slashing the EPA by 50% or more. But the nation didnt vote for him. Only when (and it WILL happen) we have a Greece type situation will things straighten out, you just can NOT spend over 150,000,000 dollars (one hundred fifty million) more a week then you make to pay your bills. We have become so lazy, that we are allowing, right now, this type of borrowing because we are to lazy to tough it out. Now up to 19 TRILLION in loans and never mind the mess the active chart shows, its ten times worse but no one cares, well, the young will one day care.
Click here for the proof, I want to know how we are going to solve this Here is the proof, no one asking how to fix it, of course not (wont play on apple devices)
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Water cooling allows the engine designer to design for max horsepower, compression, tolerances without concern for heat.
Evidence in Harleys water cooled bikes, more HP per CC/CI.
Evidence in Harleys water cooled bikes, more HP per CC/CI.
As long as it will meet the EPA's specification on emission output. To get a little more out of the motor, you need to retune it so it doesn't run lean, an thusly give off more heat which doesn't give more power.,,
Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
The only thing water cooling does is make the motor run at a given temperature ,so they can count on how much emissions is given off by the motor. The EPA could care less how well the motor runs, as long as the numbers given for certification, are consistent. Heat given off by a car, truck , bus, RV never comes in direct contact with the operators or passengers. Motorcycles don't have that luxury. Add the catalytic converter into the equation, and now you have multiple heat sources from which there's no place to hide. Being most riders ride their bikes during warm weather, the problem appears to get more uncomfortable as the season goes on. I can't believe a vehicle used for only a small part of the year, for alot less miles then the family truckster, causes as much of a pollution problem as the way bigger number of big V-8 powered cars and trucks being used as everyday transportation, every day of the year. Wouldn't limiting car mfgrs to only building 4 cylinder 100 HP motored vehicles, reduce pollution alot more then going after leisurely used vehicles?.,,,
It's not about the environment. It's about control over our lives!
The only thing water cooling does is make the motor run at a given temperature ,so they can count on how much emissions is given off by the motor. The EPA could care less how well the motor runs, as long as the numbers given for certification, are consistent. Heat given off by a car, truck , bus, RV never comes in direct contact with the operators or passengers. Motorcycles don't have that luxury. Add the catalytic converter into the equation, and now you have multiple heat sources from which there's no place to hide. Being most riders ride their bikes during warm weather, the problem appears to get more uncomfortable as the season goes on. I can't believe a vehicle used for only a small part of the year, for alot less miles then the family truckster, causes as much of a pollution problem as the way bigger number of big V-8 powered cars and trucks being used as everyday transportation, every day of the year. Wouldn't limiting car mfgrs to only building 4 cylinder 100 HP motored vehicles, reduce pollution alot more then going after leisurely used vehicles?.,,,
It's not about the environment. It's about control over our lives!
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I think what really razzes people is that the future will not be dictated by the consumer or market demands, but by the government. That certainly rubs a man like me with libertarian leanings the wrong way. Especially when the government bureaucrats are often completely clueless about the technology they are trying to regulate. Remember at one time, the head of the NHTSB suggested that seat belts be mandatory on motorcycles.
The problem is, "we the people" are the government, through voting, we allow it to happen.
We do have choices but so much of the public is uneducated and unable to understand that government creates problems, not solve problems. Every time they vote, they vote for the person who puts on the best show, they never vote on a candidates record, that takes to much work. We become a lazy nation, one who thinks magically, government is going to take care of them. However, we are the government, there is no such thing as government money, government has no money, government only spends money it takes out of your paycheck.
We had a choice a few months back, someone who would have slashed all retarded overblown tax payer funded agencys, including slashing the EPA by 50% or more. But the nation didnt vote for him. Only when (and it WILL happen) we have a Greece type situation will things straighten out, you just can NOT spend over 150,000,000 dollars (one hundred fifty million) more a week then you make to pay your bills. We have become so lazy, that we are allowing, right now, this type of borrowing because we are to lazy to tough it out. Now up to 19 TRILLION in loans and never mind the mess the active chart shows, its ten times worse but no one cares, well, the young will one day care.
Click here for the proof, I want to know how we are going to solve this Here is the proof, no one asking how to fix it, of course not (wont play on apple devices)
Six months ago I would have agreed with you about the people being able to take back control. But not now. In the last few months I've learned that it is a rigged system all over. This election season has shown it and I have been shocked. This fall's election will be very telling. Are there enough people left to vote to try to stop the rigged corruption?? I really don't know and am not optimistic. I have a degree in Political Science and have followed politics for over 45 yrs. It makes me sick now.
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
I think what really razzes people is that the future will not be dictated by the consumer or market demands, but by the government. That certainly rubs a man like me with libertarian leanings the wrong way. Especially when the government bureaucrats are often completely clueless about the technology they are trying to regulate. Remember at one time, the head of the NHTSB suggested that seat belts be mandatory on motorcycles.
The problem is, "we the people" are the government, through voting, we allow it to happen.
We do have choices but so much of the public is uneducated and unable to understand that government creates problems, not solve problems. Every time they vote, they vote for the person who puts on the best show, they never vote on a candidates record, that takes to much work. We become a lazy nation, one who thinks magically, government is going to take care of them. However, we are the government, there is no such thing as government money, government has no money, government only spends money it takes out of your paycheck.
We had a choice a few months back, someone who would have slashed all retarded overblown tax payer funded agencys, including slashing the EPA by 50% or more. But the nation didnt vote for him. Only when (and it WILL happen) we have a Greece type situation will things straighten out, you just can NOT spend over 150,000,000 dollars (one hundred fifty million) more a week then you make to pay your bills. We have become so lazy, that we are allowing, right now, this type of borrowing because we are to lazy to tough it out. Now up to 19 TRILLION in loans and never mind the mess the active chart shows, its ten times worse but no one cares, well, the young will one day care.
Click here for the proof, I want to know how we are going to solve this Here is the proof, no one asking how to fix it, of course not (wont play on apple devices)
Six months ago I would have agreed with you about the people being able to take back control. But not now. In the last few months I've learned that it is a rigged system all over. This election season has shown it and I have been shocked. This fall's election will be very telling. Are there enough people left to vote to try to stop the rigged corruption?? I really don't know and am not optimistic. I have a degree in Political Science and have followed politics for over 45 yrs. It makes me sick now.
Wow, I can't comment on most of that, the .gov wants your tuners almost as bad as they want your guns though... VW helped them figure out they can make money off of it, so you can bet they will be out revenuin' now... has exactly zero to do with the environment and everything to do with bucks... just like the VW thing.
Anyway... I digress...
I fail to see how a new engine is a bad thing, though I suppose it is ingrained in HD culture that the older one has to be better - we have folks that think the twin cam is a horrible engine and the Evolution was the cats meow. I'm sure there are ones who think the same about pans and shovels.
One need only ride a newer Harley after an older to see that things do in fact get better...
If you believe what can be found on the internet HD first trademarked the name milwaukee-eight in 2014, so you can bet the engine was in development prior to that, you don't build a new engine overnight... and they are said to already be ready to go to dealers and may arrive as soon as next week... so we shall see...
There are also rumors that Delphi injection is out and Bosch is in including ABS and possibly traction control...
It has also been noted that there appears to be an "extra" hole in the barrel of that big bore kit and that some of the fins look suspiciously shallow...
Anyway... I digress...
I fail to see how a new engine is a bad thing, though I suppose it is ingrained in HD culture that the older one has to be better - we have folks that think the twin cam is a horrible engine and the Evolution was the cats meow. I'm sure there are ones who think the same about pans and shovels.
One need only ride a newer Harley after an older to see that things do in fact get better...
If you believe what can be found on the internet HD first trademarked the name milwaukee-eight in 2014, so you can bet the engine was in development prior to that, you don't build a new engine overnight... and they are said to already be ready to go to dealers and may arrive as soon as next week... so we shall see...
There are also rumors that Delphi injection is out and Bosch is in including ABS and possibly traction control...
It has also been noted that there appears to be an "extra" hole in the barrel of that big bore kit and that some of the fins look suspiciously shallow...
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