Oh man I can't wait until Wix makes a filter for this car
Alfa Romeo 4C Mann W6014 Filter Cut Open: Big Prob
- Thread starter phaphaphooey
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I think you're overreacting
The much larger openings of the plastic core will allow for more oil flow, thus a lower pressure differential from the center core itself. Capacity of the filter is the design of the filtering element itself.
If you remove the filter element and compare a traditional metal core to the plastic one, using CFD, you can probably verify that the plastic core is better for flow.
The much larger openings of the plastic core will allow for more oil flow, thus a lower pressure differential from the center core itself. Capacity of the filter is the design of the filtering element itself.
If you remove the filter element and compare a traditional metal core to the plastic one, using CFD, you can probably verify that the plastic core is better for flow.
Wanted to post for you the ecore failure anecdote I referenced previously where the media blew out of one the openings. It is posted HERE. Not saying that it would necessarily happen to you, but just point out it has happened.
Recent ecores posted here have looked better construction wise, ie., more and tighter uniform pleating and the cages have been upgraded with increased axial supports. So they look better. It's also true the ecore 'type' nylon cage is used very successfully in many cartridge application but for whatever reasons it doesn't seem as well suited to the spin on applications imo. And as posted here recently, there is a GM tsb regarding the use of it's own ACDelco upgraded ecore design in some applications, with one proposed fix being going to a classic designed metal center tube oil filter the ACDelco Ultra Gold. At least with GM though there are many aftermarket filter alternatives using an other than ecore design.
And I've never bought the spin about increased flow with the ecore. As Z06 has often posted here, the engine is ~15 times more restrictive than the filter in pc applications. I doubt there's any 'significant' difference in flow between it and the most common metal center tube design in spin on filters for automotive applications.
As for the topic filter, while Mann takes some responsibility, Alfa has more of a share imo seeing as this apparently is the OEM and only filter. Not that it matters or helps with your concerns.
Recent ecores posted here have looked better construction wise, ie., more and tighter uniform pleating and the cages have been upgraded with increased axial supports. So they look better. It's also true the ecore 'type' nylon cage is used very successfully in many cartridge application but for whatever reasons it doesn't seem as well suited to the spin on applications imo. And as posted here recently, there is a GM tsb regarding the use of it's own ACDelco upgraded ecore design in some applications, with one proposed fix being going to a classic designed metal center tube oil filter the ACDelco Ultra Gold. At least with GM though there are many aftermarket filter alternatives using an other than ecore design.
And I've never bought the spin about increased flow with the ecore. As Z06 has often posted here, the engine is ~15 times more restrictive than the filter in pc applications. I doubt there's any 'significant' difference in flow between it and the most common metal center tube design in spin on filters for automotive applications.
As for the topic filter, while Mann takes some responsibility, Alfa has more of a share imo seeing as this apparently is the OEM and only filter. Not that it matters or helps with your concerns.
Originally Posted By: CLOVER
Quote:
BTW - he made it sound like he thinks the oil flow will be cut back if the filter goes into bypass mode. That is only true IF the oil pump has also hit pressure relief. If the oil pump is not in pressure relief, then 100% of the oil volume coming out of the pump is still going through the filter & engine ... even if the filter is bypassing some of that oil.
Yes, It is a positive displacement pump, so the flow is not affected by the filter pre-relief,
and, post-relief, the pressure is high enough (in this case 100psi) that there
will always be enough pressure to the motor...100psi relief minus 35psi bypass = 75psi.
But if the filter is badly compromised the motor sees unfiltered oil after relief
and at any other time pre-relief.
That was my comment about the positive displacement oil pump and oil flow volume.
If the oil pump pressure relieve is set to 100 psi, and the oil filter bypass valve is set to 35 psi, then 100-35=65 psi. So theoretically, if you only saw 65 psi on your oil pressure gauge - which I assume is located after the oil filter - then that would mean the filter delta-p was about at 35 psi and going into bypass.
Keep in mind, this would have to occur at really high RPM with somewhat cold oil in order to make your oil pump hit the 100 psi relief pressure. If you are driving around mellow at low RPM, the oil pump isn't going to approach 100 psi because the volume coming out of the pump at low engine speeds is much less, and therefore the resulting pressure is also less.
If the oil filter was only producing say 10 PSID when the pump was producing 100 psi (pressure relief at near redline RPM), then you should see ~90 psi on you oil pressure gauge.
If the filter was very clogged up, it could be producing 35+ psi of delta-p, which would make the bypass valve open even at lower engine RPM when the oil pump is not in pressure relief. In that case, you could not tell from looking at your oil pressure gauge what's going on because 100% of the oil coming from the pump is still going to the engine, and the oil pressure will therefore read the same. The pump has to be in pressure relief in order to determine the actual filter pressure loss (delta-p) when monitoring only one oil pressure gauge that's located after the oil filter. The only other way to determine the actual delta-p across the oil filter when the pump is not in pressure relief is to use a pressure gauge before and after the filter to see the delta-p across the oil filter.
Originally Posted By: CLOVER
I said "compromised", What you can see in the photos and drawings is the pleats
jamming together between the axial supports and deforming over the radial supports.
this must significantly restrict the capacity of this filter.
I am doing some testing:
This car has Approx 100psi relief and 35psi filter bypass.
New oil and filter.
Cold idle: 100psi supply.(relief open)
Warm idle: 45psi supply
When warm the press relief opens at 4000rpm.
Pressure across filter 2-3 psi.max.
Not sure how you're coming up with "pressure across filter 2-3 psi max". Based on the large impressions on the media that presses against the center tube cage, there's been way higher than 2-3 psi across that oil filter.
Are those pressure numbers above what you actually see on your pressure gauge? So you are saying the pressure goes up to near 100 psi (like 85~90 psi) at 4,000 RPM when the oil if fully hot?
Quote:
BTW - he made it sound like he thinks the oil flow will be cut back if the filter goes into bypass mode. That is only true IF the oil pump has also hit pressure relief. If the oil pump is not in pressure relief, then 100% of the oil volume coming out of the pump is still going through the filter & engine ... even if the filter is bypassing some of that oil.
Yes, It is a positive displacement pump, so the flow is not affected by the filter pre-relief,
and, post-relief, the pressure is high enough (in this case 100psi) that there
will always be enough pressure to the motor...100psi relief minus 35psi bypass = 75psi.
But if the filter is badly compromised the motor sees unfiltered oil after relief
and at any other time pre-relief.
That was my comment about the positive displacement oil pump and oil flow volume.
If the oil pump pressure relieve is set to 100 psi, and the oil filter bypass valve is set to 35 psi, then 100-35=65 psi. So theoretically, if you only saw 65 psi on your oil pressure gauge - which I assume is located after the oil filter - then that would mean the filter delta-p was about at 35 psi and going into bypass.
Keep in mind, this would have to occur at really high RPM with somewhat cold oil in order to make your oil pump hit the 100 psi relief pressure. If you are driving around mellow at low RPM, the oil pump isn't going to approach 100 psi because the volume coming out of the pump at low engine speeds is much less, and therefore the resulting pressure is also less.
If the oil filter was only producing say 10 PSID when the pump was producing 100 psi (pressure relief at near redline RPM), then you should see ~90 psi on you oil pressure gauge.
If the filter was very clogged up, it could be producing 35+ psi of delta-p, which would make the bypass valve open even at lower engine RPM when the oil pump is not in pressure relief. In that case, you could not tell from looking at your oil pressure gauge what's going on because 100% of the oil coming from the pump is still going to the engine, and the oil pressure will therefore read the same. The pump has to be in pressure relief in order to determine the actual filter pressure loss (delta-p) when monitoring only one oil pressure gauge that's located after the oil filter. The only other way to determine the actual delta-p across the oil filter when the pump is not in pressure relief is to use a pressure gauge before and after the filter to see the delta-p across the oil filter.
Originally Posted By: CLOVER
I said "compromised", What you can see in the photos and drawings is the pleats
jamming together between the axial supports and deforming over the radial supports.
this must significantly restrict the capacity of this filter.
I am doing some testing:
This car has Approx 100psi relief and 35psi filter bypass.
New oil and filter.
Cold idle: 100psi supply.(relief open)
Warm idle: 45psi supply
When warm the press relief opens at 4000rpm.
Pressure across filter 2-3 psi.max.
Not sure how you're coming up with "pressure across filter 2-3 psi max". Based on the large impressions on the media that presses against the center tube cage, there's been way higher than 2-3 psi across that oil filter.
Are those pressure numbers above what you actually see on your pressure gauge? So you are saying the pressure goes up to near 100 psi (like 85~90 psi) at 4,000 RPM when the oil if fully hot?
Thanks ZeeOSix, I have a handle on the workings of the system but haven't been adequately explaining it.
Thanks for the clarification.
I do have a gauge each side of the filter but am taking measurements with a new filter and oil (as I stated).
I did not have the chance to measure pressures with the old filter but ,as you said, " Based on the large
impressions on the media that presses against the center tube cage, there's been way higher than 2-3 psi
across that oil filter"
" So you are saying the pressure goes up to near 100 psi (like 85~90 psi) at 4,000 RPM when the oil if fully hot?"
The pressure goes up to 98-100psi at 4000rpm and does not go higher with increased revs. The oil is about 40-50 Deg C.
Water 90 Deg C on the car gauge.
I said approx 100 psi Because I have not calibrated the gauges accurately. The car is on a hoist and I haven't done any properly hot tests.
I fit the gauge lines via a port plate which I fit under the filter when doing readings and don't drive the car with them fitted.
I only intended to get some initial numbers to throw out there, then monitor things as the filter ages.
Thanks for the clarification.
I do have a gauge each side of the filter but am taking measurements with a new filter and oil (as I stated).
I did not have the chance to measure pressures with the old filter but ,as you said, " Based on the large
impressions on the media that presses against the center tube cage, there's been way higher than 2-3 psi
across that oil filter"
" So you are saying the pressure goes up to near 100 psi (like 85~90 psi) at 4,000 RPM when the oil if fully hot?"
The pressure goes up to 98-100psi at 4000rpm and does not go higher with increased revs. The oil is about 40-50 Deg C.
Water 90 Deg C on the car gauge.
I said approx 100 psi Because I have not calibrated the gauges accurately. The car is on a hoist and I haven't done any properly hot tests.
I fit the gauge lines via a port plate which I fit under the filter when doing readings and don't drive the car with them fitted.
I only intended to get some initial numbers to throw out there, then monitor things as the filter ages.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Looks to me like the impressions of the cage on the media are very even, top to bottom, every bar, like the filter was assembled that way.
NO, a new filter looks just like any other, the impressions are made by the filter media trying to escape thru the big holes...this is known. Also, this filter has
a bypass pressure 2.5 times that of almost all other filters and with much less inner support than most other filters.
Looks to me like the impressions of the cage on the media are very even, top to bottom, every bar, like the filter was assembled that way.
NO, a new filter looks just like any other, the impressions are made by the filter media trying to escape thru the big holes...this is known. Also, this filter has
a bypass pressure 2.5 times that of almost all other filters and with much less inner support than most other filters.
Originally Posted By: CLOVER
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Looks to me like the impressions of the cage on the media are very even, top to bottom, every bar, like the filter was assembled that way.
NO, a new filter looks just like any other, the impressions are made by the filter media trying to escape thru the big holes...this is known. Also, this filter has
a bypass pressure 2.5 times that of almost all other filters and with much less inner support than most other filters.
Was a new filter cut open? Maybe even peering inside could tell if the pleats are compressed into the bars. The dents look a little deeper in the middle of the length, but they also seem dented at the ends, which wouldn't happen due to flow as there is glue there. Closer examination at the ends may show if the media is pressed into the ribs at assembly. Your second drawing shows the wider pleat at the vertical bar, which seems right as the bar makes the tip higher, which by geometry makes the pleat spread out.
Then there is bypass, but that is only reached under certain conditions, high speed, viscous oil, or a dirty filter. The bypass valve setting shouldn't be reached all the time. The pleat tip indentations would be released in and out, moving under varying pressure, every time the engine is started, not good. Those pleat tip indentations don't look good unless they are held in place like that. IMO.
Originally Posted By: goodtimes
Looks to me like the impressions of the cage on the media are very even, top to bottom, every bar, like the filter was assembled that way.
NO, a new filter looks just like any other, the impressions are made by the filter media trying to escape thru the big holes...this is known. Also, this filter has
a bypass pressure 2.5 times that of almost all other filters and with much less inner support than most other filters.
Was a new filter cut open? Maybe even peering inside could tell if the pleats are compressed into the bars. The dents look a little deeper in the middle of the length, but they also seem dented at the ends, which wouldn't happen due to flow as there is glue there. Closer examination at the ends may show if the media is pressed into the ribs at assembly. Your second drawing shows the wider pleat at the vertical bar, which seems right as the bar makes the tip higher, which by geometry makes the pleat spread out.
Then there is bypass, but that is only reached under certain conditions, high speed, viscous oil, or a dirty filter. The bypass valve setting shouldn't be reached all the time. The pleat tip indentations would be released in and out, moving under varying pressure, every time the engine is started, not good. Those pleat tip indentations don't look good unless they are held in place like that. IMO.
Originally Posted By: CLOVER
Thanks ZeeOSix, I have a handle on the workings of the system but haven't been adequately explaining it.
Thanks for the clarification.
I do have a gauge each side of the filter but am taking measurements with a new filter and oil (as I stated).
I did not have the chance to measure pressures with the old filter but ,as you said, " Based on the large impressions on the media that presses against the center tube cage, there's been way higher than 2-3 psi across that oil filter"
"So you are saying the pressure goes up to near 100 psi (like 85~90 psi) at 4,000 RPM when the oil if fully hot?"
The pressure goes up to 98-100psi at 4000rpm and does not go higher with increased revs. The oil is about 40-50 Deg C.
Water 90 Deg C on the car gauge.
I said approx 100 psi Because I have not calibrated the gauges accurately. The car is on a hoist and I haven't done any properly hot tests.
I fit the gauge lines via a port plate which I fit under the filter when doing readings and don't drive the car with them fitted.
I only intended to get some initial numbers to throw out there, then monitor things as the filter ages.
That's great that you can actually read the delta-p across just the oil filter. That should allow you to see if the filter ever goes into bypass and under what conditions, and also how the filter's delta-p changes over time with use (new vs end of run delta-p comparisons) under all kinds of driving conditions. Having a pressure gauge between the oil pump and filter also allows you to see exactly where the oil pump pressure relief valve kicks in.
It would be nice if all cars came with pressure sensors before and after the filter because it can tell you everything that's going on.
I think those impressions on the media from the center tube cage are definitely from the pressure of the delta-p across the media pushing it into the cage over time.
Thanks ZeeOSix, I have a handle on the workings of the system but haven't been adequately explaining it.
Thanks for the clarification.
I do have a gauge each side of the filter but am taking measurements with a new filter and oil (as I stated).
I did not have the chance to measure pressures with the old filter but ,as you said, " Based on the large impressions on the media that presses against the center tube cage, there's been way higher than 2-3 psi across that oil filter"
"So you are saying the pressure goes up to near 100 psi (like 85~90 psi) at 4,000 RPM when the oil if fully hot?"
The pressure goes up to 98-100psi at 4000rpm and does not go higher with increased revs. The oil is about 40-50 Deg C.
Water 90 Deg C on the car gauge.
I said approx 100 psi Because I have not calibrated the gauges accurately. The car is on a hoist and I haven't done any properly hot tests.
I fit the gauge lines via a port plate which I fit under the filter when doing readings and don't drive the car with them fitted.
I only intended to get some initial numbers to throw out there, then monitor things as the filter ages.
That's great that you can actually read the delta-p across just the oil filter. That should allow you to see if the filter ever goes into bypass and under what conditions, and also how the filter's delta-p changes over time with use (new vs end of run delta-p comparisons) under all kinds of driving conditions. Having a pressure gauge between the oil pump and filter also allows you to see exactly where the oil pump pressure relief valve kicks in.
It would be nice if all cars came with pressure sensors before and after the filter because it can tell you everything that's going on.
I think those impressions on the media from the center tube cage are definitely from the pressure of the delta-p across the media pushing it into the cage over time.
Originally Posted By: Nederlander75
I've had Mazda, Motorcraft, and Puraone do this with insert type elements. Nothing to worry about. UOAs came back fine and engines showed no indication of missed beat.
^^^this. Nothing to worry about except the price. Maybe try buying off eBay and make the exchange rate work to your advantage??
I've had Mazda, Motorcraft, and Puraone do this with insert type elements. Nothing to worry about. UOAs came back fine and engines showed no indication of missed beat.
^^^this. Nothing to worry about except the price. Maybe try buying off eBay and make the exchange rate work to your advantage??
Some people seem to be missing the point.
1/; the filters are NOT assembled like this.I have inspected a new filter closely enough to know that the pleats are not indented when new
and the pleats are evenly spaced.(exactly like the first drawing). Both drawings were done from actual filters measured accurately.
(except they had 69 not 64 pleats)
2/; with the pleats jammed together and jammed into the support holes, it is very likely that the filter is somewhat blocked, and bypassed often.
3/; This is the only way to explain the high pressure across a 2500km filter on a new car anyhow. When the pressure across a new, un-distorted filter is low.
(I contend that as the filter distorts and closes up, because it is badly supported, the filter is restricted more so the pressure increases, so it distorts and closes more).
4/; It is a fundamental design requirement that a filters media is supported evenly, and not distorted nor compromised by its supports.
As the designed bypass pressure is increased the support must be more carefully designed...and this isn't.
5/; I have opened many filters over the years and found varying degrees of distortion and waviness mostly none. This is NOT what I am observing here.
6/; Why should we accept excrement design like this anyhow? PRICE! I don't want to be stuck with this type of rubbish at any price!
1/; the filters are NOT assembled like this.I have inspected a new filter closely enough to know that the pleats are not indented when new
and the pleats are evenly spaced.(exactly like the first drawing). Both drawings were done from actual filters measured accurately.
(except they had 69 not 64 pleats)
2/; with the pleats jammed together and jammed into the support holes, it is very likely that the filter is somewhat blocked, and bypassed often.
3/; This is the only way to explain the high pressure across a 2500km filter on a new car anyhow. When the pressure across a new, un-distorted filter is low.
(I contend that as the filter distorts and closes up, because it is badly supported, the filter is restricted more so the pressure increases, so it distorts and closes more).
4/; It is a fundamental design requirement that a filters media is supported evenly, and not distorted nor compromised by its supports.
As the designed bypass pressure is increased the support must be more carefully designed...and this isn't.
5/; I have opened many filters over the years and found varying degrees of distortion and waviness mostly none. This is NOT what I am observing here.
6/; Why should we accept excrement design like this anyhow? PRICE! I don't want to be stuck with this type of rubbish at any price!
In my case I was only playing the devils advocate in trying to offer other explanations. The picture shows the media is potted outside the cage on the ends.
It is strange the media would develop a strong permanent set in the indentations like that.
It is strange the media would develop a strong permanent set in the indentations like that.
Originally Posted By: CLOVER
2/; with the pleats jammed together and jammed into the support holes, it is very likely that the filter is somewhat blocked, and bypassed often.
3/; This is the only way to explain the high pressure across a 2500km filter on a new car anyhow. When the pressure across a new, un-distorted filter is low.
Since you have pressure gauges before and after the oil filter to get you the delta-p across just the filter, what kind of delta-p have you seen between new vs old, and between low RPM vs high RPM?
Have you actually seen the delta-p hit 35 psi on these filters?
2/; with the pleats jammed together and jammed into the support holes, it is very likely that the filter is somewhat blocked, and bypassed often.
3/; This is the only way to explain the high pressure across a 2500km filter on a new car anyhow. When the pressure across a new, un-distorted filter is low.
Since you have pressure gauges before and after the oil filter to get you the delta-p across just the filter, what kind of delta-p have you seen between new vs old, and between low RPM vs high RPM?
Have you actually seen the delta-p hit 35 psi on these filters?
This is a really neat little machine that is available right here for what seems reasonable money considering what you get.
Why would Fiat have speced a 35 psi bypass? Having done so, why wouldn't they have had the filter maker produce something with either wire-backed synthetic or fleece media?
Is there are good engineering explanation for this high bypass pressure?
If not, cross the base gasket and tapping dimensions and thread to a higher quality oil filter, which shouldn't be hard since I gather that this is a spin-on.
I seriously don't like the OEM filter design based upon what you've shown and the price of this filter for what you get is an insult to the owners of these cars.
Why would Fiat have speced a 35 psi bypass? Having done so, why wouldn't they have had the filter maker produce something with either wire-backed synthetic or fleece media?
Is there are good engineering explanation for this high bypass pressure?
If not, cross the base gasket and tapping dimensions and thread to a higher quality oil filter, which shouldn't be hard since I gather that this is a spin-on.
I seriously don't like the OEM filter design based upon what you've shown and the price of this filter for what you get is an insult to the owners of these cars.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Is there are good engineering explanation for this high bypass pressure?
Probably to prevent the filter from going into bypass unless it was severely clogged up. Sounds like this engine has pretty high oil pressure, which means it has very tight bearing clearances and/or has a pretty high volume oil pump. If the oil pump is putting out a lot of oil volume it could also be why the bypass valve is set so high. Also, if this engine used a relatively heavy oil viscosity that would add to the need for a higher bypass valve setting.
Is there are good engineering explanation for this high bypass pressure?
Probably to prevent the filter from going into bypass unless it was severely clogged up. Sounds like this engine has pretty high oil pressure, which means it has very tight bearing clearances and/or has a pretty high volume oil pump. If the oil pump is putting out a lot of oil volume it could also be why the bypass valve is set so high. Also, if this engine used a relatively heavy oil viscosity that would add to the need for a higher bypass valve setting.
Sure, but there are many high specific output engines to which the factors you cite would apply.
What's so unique about this one that a 35 psi bypass valve pressure is required?
This engine is basically an alloy 1.7 liter Giulietta four cylinder turbocharged within an inch of its life, so I'd expect things like main bearing clearance to remain the same.
I'd love to hear an insider explanation of this absurdly high bypass pressure.
I'm sure that there must be a reason.
OTOH, Subarus have insanely high oil flow rates and therefore spec a higher than typical bypass valve pressure. Many, like me, run oil filters with lower bypass pressures with no harm at all, so who knows?
What's so unique about this one that a 35 psi bypass valve pressure is required?
This engine is basically an alloy 1.7 liter Giulietta four cylinder turbocharged within an inch of its life, so I'd expect things like main bearing clearance to remain the same.
I'd love to hear an insider explanation of this absurdly high bypass pressure.
I'm sure that there must be a reason.
OTOH, Subarus have insanely high oil flow rates and therefore spec a higher than typical bypass valve pressure. Many, like me, run oil filters with lower bypass pressures with no harm at all, so who knows?
Quote:
...What's so unique about this one that a 35 psi bypass valve pressure is required?
I'd like to know that too. It would seem that high bypass spec would only add to any particular issues this hybrid type ecore filter may have.
Also why is this the only filter available for this application?
...What's so unique about this one that a 35 psi bypass valve pressure is required?
I'd like to know that too. It would seem that high bypass spec would only add to any particular issues this hybrid type ecore filter may have.
Also why is this the only filter available for this application?
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Also why is this the only filter available for this application?
Because it's a relatively new car, and Wix hasn't had the time to design a filter for this car yet
Originally Posted By: slacktide_bitog
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Also why is this the only filter available for this application?
Because it's a relatively new car, and Wix hasn't had the time to design a filter for this car yet
Hopefully for the OP's sake they will get to it soon.
Kinda sad though that he has to wait for the aftermarket to solve an oem filter issue. Ridiculous really when you think about it.
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Also why is this the only filter available for this application?
Because it's a relatively new car, and Wix hasn't had the time to design a filter for this car yet
Hopefully for the OP's sake they will get to it soon.
Kinda sad though that he has to wait for the aftermarket to solve an oem filter issue. Ridiculous really when you think about it.
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