Need clarification regarding toe alignment.
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In my opinion no. but then with this new electric steering etc, I wouldn't bet on anything. Had an old pickup once many many years ago that when we got it, it was all over the road it seemed. found that it had about 3 INCHES of toe OUT. fixed that and drove fine.
Yes, each wheel has an individual toe measurement which influences which direction that tire is pointing. When you combine the measurements from all the tires you get a "thrust angle" that measures how the car wants to travel based on the individual toe measurements at each wheel. Thus it is possible to have all the individual toe measurements in spec but still have a pull if they create a significant thrust angle once combined.
Originally Posted By: Ethan1
Yes, of course. Toe is the measurement of which direction the wheels are pointed left/right/center. Obviously if the wheels are pointed to the right when the steering wheel is pointed straight...
What I'm saying is I don't care how the steering wheel pointed at. I'm talking strictly the car driving direction.
Originally Posted By: 09_GXP
Yes, each wheel has an individual toe measurement which influences which direction that tire is pointing. When you combine the measurements from all the tires you get a "thrust angle" that measures how the car wants to travel based on the individual toe measurements at each wheel. Thus it is possible to have all the individual toe measurements in spec but still have a pull if they create a significant thrust angle once combined.
If I release my hand from the steering wheel, and I don't care where the steering wheel where it point at, Does the car still go straight? I ask this because, most of the time, the car manufacturers gives only the "total toe".
Yes, of course. Toe is the measurement of which direction the wheels are pointed left/right/center. Obviously if the wheels are pointed to the right when the steering wheel is pointed straight...
What I'm saying is I don't care how the steering wheel pointed at. I'm talking strictly the car driving direction.
Originally Posted By: 09_GXP
Yes, each wheel has an individual toe measurement which influences which direction that tire is pointing. When you combine the measurements from all the tires you get a "thrust angle" that measures how the car wants to travel based on the individual toe measurements at each wheel. Thus it is possible to have all the individual toe measurements in spec but still have a pull if they create a significant thrust angle once combined.
If I release my hand from the steering wheel, and I don't care where the steering wheel where it point at, Does the car still go straight? I ask this because, most of the time, the car manufacturers gives only the "total toe".
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roads are crowned on the center line slanting down toward the shoulder for drainage. And blacktop has concave low spots where tires usually travel. That combined with generally lower profile tires and it can pull to one side due to the lack of a flat/level surface.
Toe describes the wheels L/R ~parallel relationship to each other and CAN effect vehicle tracking. A slight toe IN opposes the road and vehicle variables and so will naturally go straight. A toe OUT will wander all over the road especially if one wheel hits a bump or on rainy/icy roads where traction is sketchy. If you don't have a rear straight axle those rear wheels need toe adjustment as well ...yikes
Test at a large flat parking lot where it shouldn't pull or wander. If it is adjusted and still pulls a dragging brake caliper can cause that
Toe describes the wheels L/R ~parallel relationship to each other and CAN effect vehicle tracking. A slight toe IN opposes the road and vehicle variables and so will naturally go straight. A toe OUT will wander all over the road especially if one wheel hits a bump or on rainy/icy roads where traction is sketchy. If you don't have a rear straight axle those rear wheels need toe adjustment as well ...yikes
Test at a large flat parking lot where it shouldn't pull or wander. If it is adjusted and still pulls a dragging brake caliper can cause that
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Originally Posted By: Kawiguy454
... If it is adjusted and still pulls a dragging brake caliper can cause that
So can a faulty tire.
The photos look most like a camber issue, though.
... If it is adjusted and still pulls a dragging brake caliper can cause that
So can a faulty tire.
The photos look most like a camber issue, though.
Originally Posted By: ST2008
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If the total toe is within the spec but the toes of the two tires are not the same, what is going to happen to the car, aside the misalignment of the steering wheel ?
Nothing...
With the caveat that it isn't so far off as to cause the PS control valve to be providing boost on an older car, as mentioned all bets could be off on a newer car with EPS/DTC/RSC or any other version of electric power steering or stability control. (Though one would expect a warning light in that case.)
But if you haven't replaced that tire (and possibly a pair depending on how worn the others are) - you have no idea if it is the alignment causing the pull/lead/drift...
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If the total toe is within the spec but the toes of the two tires are not the same, what is going to happen to the car, aside the misalignment of the steering wheel ?
Nothing...
With the caveat that it isn't so far off as to cause the PS control valve to be providing boost on an older car, as mentioned all bets could be off on a newer car with EPS/DTC/RSC or any other version of electric power steering or stability control. (Though one would expect a warning light in that case.)
But if you haven't replaced that tire (and possibly a pair depending on how worn the others are) - you have no idea if it is the alignment causing the pull/lead/drift...
Is there some ulterior motive to this post? Did you get a poor alignment? I worked at a tire shop and we sent a Camry packing with bad camber... told the guy it wasn't adjustable and he must have been in a wreck.
Camber is the cure for pulls, and it CAN be adjusted, if the will is there. Might need extra parts or to ggrind stuff.
Camber is the cure for pulls, and it CAN be adjusted, if the will is there. Might need extra parts or to ggrind stuff.
Originally Posted By: ST2008
Hi
Regardless the steering wheel alignment, can somebody tell me if a "wrong" toe can make a car pull one side or the other ?
thx.
Simple answer is that toe does not cause a pull. It will cause tire wear and and a off-center steering wheel.
Camber and caster cause pulls.
Hi
Regardless the steering wheel alignment, can somebody tell me if a "wrong" toe can make a car pull one side or the other ?
thx.
Simple answer is that toe does not cause a pull. It will cause tire wear and and a off-center steering wheel.
Camber and caster cause pulls.
Originally Posted By: 09_GXP
Yes, each wheel has an individual toe measurement which influences which direction that tire is pointing. When you combine the measurements from all the tires you get a "thrust angle" that measures how the car wants to travel based on the individual toe measurements at each wheel. Thus it is possible to have all the individual toe measurements in spec but still have a pull if they create a significant thrust angle once combined.
Thrust angle is the reference line to which the front toe is set. If the rear total toe is not zero(or within spec) the vehicle will dog-track, not pull.
Thrust angle is the combined total toe of the rear tires, not the "combined measurements from all the tires".
Yes, each wheel has an individual toe measurement which influences which direction that tire is pointing. When you combine the measurements from all the tires you get a "thrust angle" that measures how the car wants to travel based on the individual toe measurements at each wheel. Thus it is possible to have all the individual toe measurements in spec but still have a pull if they create a significant thrust angle once combined.
Thrust angle is the reference line to which the front toe is set. If the rear total toe is not zero(or within spec) the vehicle will dog-track, not pull.
Thrust angle is the combined total toe of the rear tires, not the "combined measurements from all the tires".
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Originally Posted By: eljefino
Is there some ulterior motive to this post?...
Yes this...
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb..._ti#Post4161824
Only one tire of my car has this excessive wear. The others are all fine. I'm trying to sort out what cause this wear and, for now, all point to the camber.
Now I have to find out what cause the excessive negative camber in this tire. The car, a 2000 civic, is bone stock and the camber is not adjustable.
Is there some ulterior motive to this post?...
Yes this...
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb..._ti#Post4161824
Only one tire of my car has this excessive wear. The others are all fine. I'm trying to sort out what cause this wear and, for now, all point to the camber.
Now I have to find out what cause the excessive negative camber in this tire. The car, a 2000 civic, is bone stock and the camber is not adjustable.
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A couple of thoughts:
Will toe cause a pull? If we ignore that fact that the steering wheel is off center - No! If we add the fact that centering the steering wheel causes the vehicle not to drive straight, but the vehicle can be driven straight if the steering wheel is cocked a bit, then Yes.
Will the camber affect the toe? Probably! Many vehicle suspensions are such that when you adjust the camber, the toe angle is affected, too!
And one thing I forgot to mention in the other thread: Even though many alignment shops do this, there is no excuse for allowing the non-adjustablility of any vehicle leaving the shop out of tolerance - with the exception of crash damage. EVERY alignment item can be adjusted, but it might take an eccentric bolt or a camber kit to get it in spec. I can understand why a customer might refuse to pay for those items, but the shop ought to offer - and it ought to be up front (before the work is started).
Will toe cause a pull? If we ignore that fact that the steering wheel is off center - No! If we add the fact that centering the steering wheel causes the vehicle not to drive straight, but the vehicle can be driven straight if the steering wheel is cocked a bit, then Yes.
Will the camber affect the toe? Probably! Many vehicle suspensions are such that when you adjust the camber, the toe angle is affected, too!
And one thing I forgot to mention in the other thread: Even though many alignment shops do this, there is no excuse for allowing the non-adjustablility of any vehicle leaving the shop out of tolerance - with the exception of crash damage. EVERY alignment item can be adjusted, but it might take an eccentric bolt or a camber kit to get it in spec. I can understand why a customer might refuse to pay for those items, but the shop ought to offer - and it ought to be up front (before the work is started).
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