Contrary to manufacturer's recommendation, on my '13 Cruze (1.4 gas turbo) I changed the oil first at 2,000 mi. (took advantage of my one free OC at the dealer, so syn. blend) then again at 6,000 mi., and every 5K afterward with full syn. Now at 72K it burns or leaks zero oil and is surpassing many owners with failed turbos, blown head gaskets, etc. with substantially fewer miles.
Oil opinions after dumping FF
- Thread starter JoelB
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No problems with synthetic. Many cars come factory filled with synthetic and run just fine without any issues. I think you only run into problems if you try to break in a rebuilt engine from an older car on synthetic. New engines are nothing like the engines of old, they're on a whole different level of design and performance.
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Originally Posted By: BeerCan
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
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I'm not going to play your silly games boy. I am here on a discussion forum to have fun with subjects I like, not to defend a thesis or see who's e-peen is bigger.
I called you "sir," and you respond with e-peen? I honestly had to look that up on an urban slang dictionary. I fully understand an immature debate tactic when I see it, since you resort to personal attacks, I assume your inability to counter with facts. Your mind is obviously made up and will not be confused with facts. I disengage. Live long and prosper.
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
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I'm not going to play your silly games boy. I am here on a discussion forum to have fun with subjects I like, not to defend a thesis or see who's e-peen is bigger.
I called you "sir," and you respond with e-peen? I honestly had to look that up on an urban slang dictionary. I fully understand an immature debate tactic when I see it, since you resort to personal attacks, I assume your inability to counter with facts. Your mind is obviously made up and will not be confused with facts. I disengage. Live long and prosper.
I look at the occasional UOA from a new vehicle, and wear metals are always high, a normal occurrence for an new engine. Obviously those wear metals are not being filtered out of the oil, because they show up as elevated wear metals in the report. I look at those metals as metal which can cause additional wear, I want them out. Are they harmless? Even the finest sand paper can remove paint from metal, or metal from metal given enough time. The same applies for extra wear metal in an engine. I agree with Noria's findings, numerous discussions with Trav, and an old friend who owns a machine shop and builds engines. But as mentioned this topic will always have two sides.
OP- Bottom line your car, your money, spend it as you see fit.
OP- Bottom line your car, your money, spend it as you see fit.
to ihatetochangeoil - Here's some pics I took of my sons oil filter after 8000+ miles on the factory fill - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...lte#Post4069441 - appears very clean to me - no debris.
to OP - I'd run FF to OLM and make 1st two changes a semi-synthetic to help the rings seat better - run both to OLM. After that, full synthetic of your choice. Always stay topped off.
to OP - I'd run FF to OLM and make 1st two changes a semi-synthetic to help the rings seat better - run both to OLM. After that, full synthetic of your choice. Always stay topped off.
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Thank you sir. let's talk facts. Current oil categories per API have obviously changed (however slight), but engine manufacturing techniques which GENERATE DEBRIS have changed how? It appears that you have pointed out the obvious (oil categories updating) and ignored the obvious (engine manufacturing techniques) Would you care to now instruct the class on the other side of the equation?
Please state and provide links, sources, or video data (something a little more substantial than your opinion)? As to how "Modern engine manufacturing techniques" have so radically changed from 2003 to 2016 that there is no leftover debris in the engine?
Here's a refresher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr4_B9EXWSo This is why Mr. Jim Fitch recommends FF oil changes as outlined above. Please keep your response factual. Thank you.
Edit: FYI, the youtube video is two (2) years old.
I'll jump in here if only to provide information for the community and not to get in an argument so don't expect any other replys. I don't have any public info that I can share so you will dismiss all this anyway, but others may find it useful.
The manufacturing techniques for engines have changed dramatically over the last decade. How do I know this, I used to work as an engine development engineer for major components such as blocks, heads, cams, etc, obviously specifics are proprietary and I can't share. However, if you look at where debris come from in new engines there are a couple main sources. The first is debris left in the parts that did not get washed out the second is debris that are created from initial break in.
For #1 improvements have been made in the type of cutting tools, cutting fluid, speed and feed rates, and wash out stations. Casting suppliers have also been held to ever tighter tolerances on what is allowed to remain from the casting process. All of these improvements have led to parts that are much cleaner when they leave the machining line than ever before. This has been verified through statistical studies.
For #2 both improved materials and the improved machining mentioned before have contributed to less break in particles. Newer materials and manufacturing methods are able to hold parts to much tighter tolerances than ever. Combine that with major component manufacturing that results in significantly improved surface finishes that reduce the break in time. Since break in wear occurs when the irregularities in surfaces are worn away any improvement in surface finish control will greatly reduce these debris.
These factors do not mean that there is zero break in occurring and that the first oil change will be the same as subsequent. It just means that the first OCI today will look much better than it did 10 years ago on a comparable engine.
Thank you sir. let's talk facts. Current oil categories per API have obviously changed (however slight), but engine manufacturing techniques which GENERATE DEBRIS have changed how? It appears that you have pointed out the obvious (oil categories updating) and ignored the obvious (engine manufacturing techniques) Would you care to now instruct the class on the other side of the equation?
Please state and provide links, sources, or video data (something a little more substantial than your opinion)? As to how "Modern engine manufacturing techniques" have so radically changed from 2003 to 2016 that there is no leftover debris in the engine?
Here's a refresher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr4_B9EXWSo This is why Mr. Jim Fitch recommends FF oil changes as outlined above. Please keep your response factual. Thank you.
Edit: FYI, the youtube video is two (2) years old.
I'll jump in here if only to provide information for the community and not to get in an argument so don't expect any other replys. I don't have any public info that I can share so you will dismiss all this anyway, but others may find it useful.
The manufacturing techniques for engines have changed dramatically over the last decade. How do I know this, I used to work as an engine development engineer for major components such as blocks, heads, cams, etc, obviously specifics are proprietary and I can't share. However, if you look at where debris come from in new engines there are a couple main sources. The first is debris left in the parts that did not get washed out the second is debris that are created from initial break in.
For #1 improvements have been made in the type of cutting tools, cutting fluid, speed and feed rates, and wash out stations. Casting suppliers have also been held to ever tighter tolerances on what is allowed to remain from the casting process. All of these improvements have led to parts that are much cleaner when they leave the machining line than ever before. This has been verified through statistical studies.
For #2 both improved materials and the improved machining mentioned before have contributed to less break in particles. Newer materials and manufacturing methods are able to hold parts to much tighter tolerances than ever. Combine that with major component manufacturing that results in significantly improved surface finishes that reduce the break in time. Since break in wear occurs when the irregularities in surfaces are worn away any improvement in surface finish control will greatly reduce these debris.
These factors do not mean that there is zero break in occurring and that the first oil change will be the same as subsequent. It just means that the first OCI today will look much better than it did 10 years ago on a comparable engine.
Originally Posted By: bigt61
to ihatetochangeoil - Here's some pics I took of my sons oil filter after 8000+ miles on the factory fill - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...lte#Post4069441 - appears very clean to me - no debris.
to OP - I'd run FF to OLM and make 1st two changes a semi-synthetic to help the rings seat better - run both to OLM. After that, full synthetic of your choice. Always stay topped off.
I agree with running the FF to OLM and following the owners manual. No need for an early change and there is some evidence to suggest an early change may do harm. Conclusive evidence shows it has no benefit.
As far as running semi-Syn to seat the rings that's pure urban legend. You can run full Syn and rings will seat just fine. That is an an wives tale type belief.
to ihatetochangeoil - Here's some pics I took of my sons oil filter after 8000+ miles on the factory fill - http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...lte#Post4069441 - appears very clean to me - no debris.
to OP - I'd run FF to OLM and make 1st two changes a semi-synthetic to help the rings seat better - run both to OLM. After that, full synthetic of your choice. Always stay topped off.
I agree with running the FF to OLM and following the owners manual. No need for an early change and there is some evidence to suggest an early change may do harm. Conclusive evidence shows it has no benefit.
As far as running semi-Syn to seat the rings that's pure urban legend. You can run full Syn and rings will seat just fine. That is an an wives tale type belief.
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I take an overall view. On both my 2013 Silverado 1500 and my 2015 Silverado 2500, I changed all the factory lube fills throughout the entire drive train before 5000 miles. On the closer tolerances and cleaner assembly, from what I found on magnetic drain plugs would cause anyone to be a skeptic that things have improved that much. The transfer case magnetic plugs on both looked like a cat had stuck it's tail in a light socket with all the metal shavings and particulates on them. The diffs, not nearly as bad, but bad enough. I didn't cut open the oil filter on the engine to see what it looked like. Probably should have. But I am skeptical that things have improved as much as some proclaim. So I will continue to adhere to the early drop of FF that I have done for over 40 years. Academic discussions are one thing, seeing a plug and what it looks like in your hands is quite another.
I will counter with fleets like my wrecker fleet. Nothing gets changed early. We run everything to specs for the duty cycles we put on the trucks per owners manual. (and cars for my salespeople). Having owned a shop as well and having at various times been the low bidder to maintain both police, city vehicles and county school busses I can tell you every fluid was run as per manufacturer and zero early changes of FF or ANY fluid ever occurred. Oils and filters and other items were the absolute cheapest I could buy in bulk that met the required specs. ($1.50 oil filters for police cars) I never cheated and always provided what the manual and my bid said I would. I certainly didn't provide more and never bought what you would consider brand names. Overall fleet wide with all different types of motors--gas and diesel--manufacturers and even a lot of hydrualic equipment (my wreckers) the fleets have all been extremely reliable overall.
Everyone of my wreckers gets all the AC vents broken within 4 months by the drivers, knobs ripped off stereos and seats ripped Ect. Think how these guys are driving my trucks. Spinning the duals on a F550. They shift from drive to reverse to drive without a full stop. (95 percent of our towing is tresspass towing so it's go go go fast fast fast). We drive over curbs at high speeds.
I am extremely confident big fleets nationwide never get anything other than minimal intervals, never early FF changes and the cheapest fluids and filters meeting minimum spec. That's IF the fleets are well maintained. A lot of fleets fall below this minimun level. Overall fleet vehciles are the most reliable, hardest run, beat on and rack up huge huge huge mileages throughout their service life. Ever seen the odometer on a police car, city bus or taxi cab?? Luminas and Crown Vic's with 400k original motors are not a rarity. Most of thr times the drivers don't care about the vehicle and dog it and most fleets idle constantly and do short stop and go driving. That's thr hardest type of driving yet we are seeing huge odometer numbers with very good realiability overall.
I don't think anyone can prove early FF changes, more aggressive maintenance and boutique and high dollar filters and fluids do anything to extend the life of the vehicle. We do have plenty of evidence proving the factory spec'd intervals and fluids work very well. We have some evidence to at least indicate the possibility over maintenace can cause harm. Dirty filters are more effective that new ones....harsh additive packages never being run out Ect.... We do know people performing overly aggressive maint waste money. We do know it's not good for the environment.
UOAs back this up. Oil is oil if it meets spec. Dino can be very robust. Even the lest conservative maint intervals per manuals are extremely conservative.
Everyone of my wreckers gets all the AC vents broken within 4 months by the drivers, knobs ripped off stereos and seats ripped Ect. Think how these guys are driving my trucks. Spinning the duals on a F550. They shift from drive to reverse to drive without a full stop. (95 percent of our towing is tresspass towing so it's go go go fast fast fast). We drive over curbs at high speeds.
I am extremely confident big fleets nationwide never get anything other than minimal intervals, never early FF changes and the cheapest fluids and filters meeting minimum spec. That's IF the fleets are well maintained. A lot of fleets fall below this minimun level. Overall fleet vehciles are the most reliable, hardest run, beat on and rack up huge huge huge mileages throughout their service life. Ever seen the odometer on a police car, city bus or taxi cab?? Luminas and Crown Vic's with 400k original motors are not a rarity. Most of thr times the drivers don't care about the vehicle and dog it and most fleets idle constantly and do short stop and go driving. That's thr hardest type of driving yet we are seeing huge odometer numbers with very good realiability overall.
I don't think anyone can prove early FF changes, more aggressive maintenance and boutique and high dollar filters and fluids do anything to extend the life of the vehicle. We do have plenty of evidence proving the factory spec'd intervals and fluids work very well. We have some evidence to at least indicate the possibility over maintenace can cause harm. Dirty filters are more effective that new ones....harsh additive packages never being run out Ect.... We do know people performing overly aggressive maint waste money. We do know it's not good for the environment.
UOAs back this up. Oil is oil if it meets spec. Dino can be very robust. Even the lest conservative maint intervals per manuals are extremely conservative.
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I would agree that it's difficult if not impossible to prove one way or the other if an early oil change helps the engine life. There at tons of cars that do not receive and early oil change that make it many many miles.
In my specific case i do it because it makes me feel like I'm pampering the engine. I have no kids and lots of time to tinker on my vehicles so it's almost a hobby for me. So I may run a synthetic when a conventional will work, but what does it hurt to spend a few extra dollars here and there?
People need to stop trying to draw black and white conclusions from everything they read and just do what you want to do!
In my specific case i do it because it makes me feel like I'm pampering the engine. I have no kids and lots of time to tinker on my vehicles so it's almost a hobby for me. So I may run a synthetic when a conventional will work, but what does it hurt to spend a few extra dollars here and there?
People need to stop trying to draw black and white conclusions from everything they read and just do what you want to do!
" but what does it hurt to spend a few extra dollars here and there?
People need to stop trying to draw black and white conclusions from everything they read and just do what you want to do!"
It hurts the bottom line and for businesses it's ALL about profit.
I'm not trying to be rude or smart but if someone doesn't want comments don't post online on a public forum. This is a just academic discussion. No one is coming to your house with a gun to stop you from doing what you want to do.
It's easy to prove factory maint specs for intervals and fluid work and work well. UOAs almost always show an extremely conservative margin of safety with factory spec fluids and factory intervals. Manufacturers spends tons and tons and tons of resources testing and validating. Major manufactures have multimillion dollar proving grounds in addition to taking their products all over the world to extreme environments probably 90 plus percent of owners will never experience.
It's impossible to show early FF changes and overly aggressive maintenance actually do anyhring but make someone feel good, waste money and waste limited environmental resources.
People need to stop trying to draw black and white conclusions from everything they read and just do what you want to do!"
It hurts the bottom line and for businesses it's ALL about profit.
I'm not trying to be rude or smart but if someone doesn't want comments don't post online on a public forum. This is a just academic discussion. No one is coming to your house with a gun to stop you from doing what you want to do.
It's easy to prove factory maint specs for intervals and fluid work and work well. UOAs almost always show an extremely conservative margin of safety with factory spec fluids and factory intervals. Manufacturers spends tons and tons and tons of resources testing and validating. Major manufactures have multimillion dollar proving grounds in addition to taking their products all over the world to extreme environments probably 90 plus percent of owners will never experience.
It's impossible to show early FF changes and overly aggressive maintenance actually do anyhring but make someone feel good, waste money and waste limited environmental resources.
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If i were in business and this were a decision for my fleet of course I wouldn't pick the "feel good" option. But I'm just a consumer. I put on less than 6k miles a year which equals out to AT MOST 2 oil changes a year. So we are talking about spending and extra $50 a year tops to go from conventional to synthetic and I would never consider any environmental issues at that low amount of oil (less than 10 quarts a year).
Another reason i run synthetic with lower OCI's is because i live 5 miles from work and commute on back roads so the car see's lots of short trips. I feel better having synthetic in the engine for its generally good cleaning ability and it's ability to flow well in our terrible winters.
Another reason i run synthetic with lower OCI's is because i live 5 miles from work and commute on back roads so the car see's lots of short trips. I feel better having synthetic in the engine for its generally good cleaning ability and it's ability to flow well in our terrible winters.
Originally Posted By: JoelB
If i were in business and this were a decision for my fleet of course I wouldn't pick the "feel good" option. But I'm just a consumer. I put on less than 6k miles a year which equals out to AT MOST 2 oil changes a year. So we are talking about spending and extra $50 a year tops to go from conventional to synthetic and I would never consider any environmental issues at that low amount of oil (less than 10 quarts a year).
Another reason i run synthetic with lower OCI's is because i live 5 miles from work and commute on back roads so the car see's lots of short trips. I feel better having synthetic in the engine for its generally good cleaning ability and it's ability to flow well in our terrible winters.
My van sees similar usage, in fact some of my trips are even shorter. I have to move materials and equipment short distances to job sites with it. I run synthetic oil changing it every 12-18 months now. For the extra $10-$15 [sometimes less] per OCI the synthetic oil is a no brainer.
If i were in business and this were a decision for my fleet of course I wouldn't pick the "feel good" option. But I'm just a consumer. I put on less than 6k miles a year which equals out to AT MOST 2 oil changes a year. So we are talking about spending and extra $50 a year tops to go from conventional to synthetic and I would never consider any environmental issues at that low amount of oil (less than 10 quarts a year).
Another reason i run synthetic with lower OCI's is because i live 5 miles from work and commute on back roads so the car see's lots of short trips. I feel better having synthetic in the engine for its generally good cleaning ability and it's ability to flow well in our terrible winters.
My van sees similar usage, in fact some of my trips are even shorter. I have to move materials and equipment short distances to job sites with it. I run synthetic oil changing it every 12-18 months now. For the extra $10-$15 [sometimes less] per OCI the synthetic oil is a no brainer.
For most people in thr US any given weight conventional vs same weight synthetic has the same flow properties. Yes in "extreme" temperatures synthetic outperforms but I seriously doubt you even come close to "extreme".
From Mobil 1s own web page (they pretty much invented synthetic oils)
"""Mobil 1's 5W-30 will pump at -58-degrees F, compared to about -35-degrees F for a conventional oil.
""
From Mobil 1s own web page (they pretty much invented synthetic oils)
"""Mobil 1's 5W-30 will pump at -58-degrees F, compared to about -35-degrees F for a conventional oil.
""
Any 5w-XX must meet MRV and CCS standards for the viscosity claimed, regardless of base stock. I have shown examples here over the years of conventionals that have better numbers than synthetics, within the same grade. If I'm concerned about cold weather starting, I'd choose M1 AFE 0w-30 over M1 5w-30, rather than choosing M1 5w-30 over Mobil Super 5w-30 conventional.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Any 5w-XX must meet MRV and CCS standards for the viscosity claimed, regardless of base stock. I have shown examples here over the years of conventionals that have better numbers than synthetics, within the same grade. If I'm concerned about cold weather starting, I'd choose M1 AFE 0w-30 over M1 5w-30, rather than choosing M1 5w-30 over Mobil Super 5w-30 conventional.
I think you and I would get along well over a beer.
Any 5w-XX must meet MRV and CCS standards for the viscosity claimed, regardless of base stock. I have shown examples here over the years of conventionals that have better numbers than synthetics, within the same grade. If I'm concerned about cold weather starting, I'd choose M1 AFE 0w-30 over M1 5w-30, rather than choosing M1 5w-30 over Mobil Super 5w-30 conventional.
I think you and I would get along well over a beer.
Probably; however, I quit drinking years ago, so I'll have to suffer it out with near beer.
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