having just purchased a new bmw thumper g650gs + not wanting to pay $14.50 a qt for their semi-syn oils i found the valvoline 20-50 fully "synthetic" group III i assume at $8.75 a qt, it meets the specs + has little to no moly. on that note the bmw owners manual states oils with no additives like moly, due to not being good on their engine coatings!!! is this bmw bull or what, as i never heard or read anything to that respect. thanks in advance for any info as i like to learn about any new developments!!
moly + engine coatings
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Moly attack or erose engine coatings? What coatings? Teflon on piston skirts?
Most of us bike people avoid moly as much as possible anyways. Most of us have wet clutches and moly doesn't always play well with those. I bet they have something like Nikasil plating on the bores they are concerned about.
benjy, Several comments. 1st on BMW's moly "warning" Most European manufacturers went to JASO MA2 oils within the last two/three years. Long story made short, they all have been implementing significant mechanical changes towards meeting the new European motorcycle standards. If your new BMW is model year 2014 or newer you will see in the owners manual that a MA2 oil is specified. MA2 oil has NO moly in the additive package. Moly will deteriorate the clutch materials of any/all new European machines...as well as do harm to some other internals...depending on the bike and the maker. So in a word, "NO" it's not BMW "bull". All European manufactured motorcycles already do/or will for certain require JASO MA2 oil by model year 2017.
Right now there are not a lot of choices available on the US market. BMW markets Shell Ultra, Spectro offers a MA2, 100% PAO, and Liqui-Moly offers a MA2 100% PAO base oil. That's about it unless you want to step-down to a Group III base. I know that Motorex and Motul will be bringing their MA2 oils to the US in the near future too.
Personally, I use the Liqui-Moly from Amazon as I just can't stomach paying +$17/liter to BMW for non synthetic
altered crude. Hope this helps.
Right now there are not a lot of choices available on the US market. BMW markets Shell Ultra, Spectro offers a MA2, 100% PAO, and Liqui-Moly offers a MA2 100% PAO base oil. That's about it unless you want to step-down to a Group III base. I know that Motorex and Motul will be bringing their MA2 oils to the US in the near future too.
Personally, I use the Liqui-Moly from Amazon as I just can't stomach paying +$17/liter to BMW for non synthetic
altered crude. Hope this helps.
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Where did you get the info about Spectro and Liqui-Moly? I couldn't find any reference to PAO in Spectro's Platinum 4 documents, just "Proprietary Synthetic Base Oils". Liqui-Moly only lists 20% PAO on the SDS of their 5W-40, I can't find any reference to PAO on the other grades. Granted an SDS doesn't tell the whole story, but if they list a 10%-20% range on PAO I would suspect there wasn't any more than that.
I may also just not have the same information you do though, so if I am totally wrong, by all means tell me. I just couldn't find anything after a quick search.
I may also just not have the same information you do though, so if I am totally wrong, by all means tell me. I just couldn't find anything after a quick search.
Castrol Power RS Synthetic and their Actevo blend are Jaso MA2 as does the Valvoline full syn. Those are all easy to find and relatively inexpensive.
Bel-Ray, Maxima, Yamalube, Motul, Silkolene, and Repsol all have a whole slough of MA2 oils (I'm just looking at the ones filed with JALOS; see the JALOS list of filed JASO T903 oils. Even Valvoline has a number of MA2 oils filed with JALOS. Most all of these, apart from the Yamalube, are available from your local Cycle Gear, as well as other bike shops. Your local Yamaha dealer carries Yamalube, and of course the Valvoline bike oils are available at many H311-marts (and elsewhere). It ain't so tough to get MA2 oils that are filed with JALOS. There may be more that are not filed; I don't know. I know Redline, for example, does not file their oils with JALOS. I haven't asked them whether their products are MA1, MA2, or just MA.
As far as MA2 compliance precluding the presence of any molybdenum whatsoever, I am dubious.
As far as MA2 compliance precluding the presence of any molybdenum whatsoever, I am dubious.
The new 2016 JASO spec actually has a field to report the moly content of the oil, so no it is not impossible for an oil that contains moly to pass the clutch test. However it is a less commonly used additive in MA, MA1 and MA2 oils compared to other oil types.
Here is a brief description of the function of moly in lubricants;
https://www.google.hn/patents/US6174842
https://www.google.hn/patents/US6174842
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Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Where did you get the info about Spectro and Liqui-Moly? I couldn't find any reference to PAO in Spectro's Platinum 4 documents, just "Proprietary Synthetic Base Oils". Liqui-Moly only lists 20% PAO on the SDS of their 5W-40, I can't find any reference to PAO on the other grades. Granted an SDS doesn't tell the whole story, but if they list a 10%-20% range on PAO I would suspect there wasn't any more than that.
I may also just not have the same information you do though, so if I am totally wrong, by all means tell me. I just couldn't find anything after a quick search.
It appears Spectro recently redesigned their website, but it is there about PAO:
" This why we formulate with
the Group IV PAO. It is stable and oxidation resistant.
In short, it is the best and most durable synthetic base
stock available.
Some competitors tout esters. We agree that esters
give great lubricity and help increase fuel economy,
and that’s one of the reasons why
we use them. We actually blend
esters in combination with other
PAOs in our full synthetic and
semi-synthetic products. By doing
this we get the benefit of the PAO
molecule’s special strengths and
performance in the challenging
4 cycle environment, but then
combine that with the additional benefits of an ester"
source: http://spectro-oils.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/2015.pdf
I buy mine online at Chaparral Motor Sports or at the dealership.
Where did you get the info about Spectro and Liqui-Moly? I couldn't find any reference to PAO in Spectro's Platinum 4 documents, just "Proprietary Synthetic Base Oils". Liqui-Moly only lists 20% PAO on the SDS of their 5W-40, I can't find any reference to PAO on the other grades. Granted an SDS doesn't tell the whole story, but if they list a 10%-20% range on PAO I would suspect there wasn't any more than that.
I may also just not have the same information you do though, so if I am totally wrong, by all means tell me. I just couldn't find anything after a quick search.
It appears Spectro recently redesigned their website, but it is there about PAO:
" This why we formulate with
the Group IV PAO. It is stable and oxidation resistant.
In short, it is the best and most durable synthetic base
stock available.
Some competitors tout esters. We agree that esters
give great lubricity and help increase fuel economy,
and that’s one of the reasons why
we use them. We actually blend
esters in combination with other
PAOs in our full synthetic and
semi-synthetic products. By doing
this we get the benefit of the PAO
molecule’s special strengths and
performance in the challenging
4 cycle environment, but then
combine that with the additional benefits of an ester"
source: http://spectro-oils.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/2015.pdf
I buy mine online at Chaparral Motor Sports or at the dealership.
Originally Posted By: LoneRanger
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Where did you get the info about Spectro and Liqui-Moly? I couldn't find any reference to PAO in Spectro's Platinum 4 documents, just "Proprietary Synthetic Base Oils". Liqui-Moly only lists 20% PAO on the SDS of their 5W-40, I can't find any reference to PAO on the other grades. Granted an SDS doesn't tell the whole story, but if they list a 10%-20% range on PAO I would suspect there wasn't any more than that.
I may also just not have the same information you do though, so if I am totally wrong, by all means tell me. I just couldn't find anything after a quick search.
It appears Spectro recently redesigned their website, but it is there about PAO:
" This why we formulate with
the Group IV PAO. It is stable and oxidation resistant.
In short, it is the best and most durable synthetic base
stock available.
Some competitors tout esters. We agree that esters
give great lubricity and help increase fuel economy,
and that’s one of the reasons why
we use them. We actually blend
esters in combination with other
PAOs in our full synthetic and
semi-synthetic products. By doing
this we get the benefit of the PAO
molecule’s special strengths and
performance in the challenging
4 cycle environment, but then
combine that with the additional benefits of an ester"
source: http://spectro-oils.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/2015.pdf
I buy mine online at Chaparral Motor Sports or at the dealership.
I see; I'm not saying that the products aren't 100% because I honestly do not know for sure, but that only tells me that they use them. It doesn't say how much though, so I would be leery on that 100% group IV/Group V assumption without a direct statement saying so.
Originally Posted By: MotoTribologist
Where did you get the info about Spectro and Liqui-Moly? I couldn't find any reference to PAO in Spectro's Platinum 4 documents, just "Proprietary Synthetic Base Oils". Liqui-Moly only lists 20% PAO on the SDS of their 5W-40, I can't find any reference to PAO on the other grades. Granted an SDS doesn't tell the whole story, but if they list a 10%-20% range on PAO I would suspect there wasn't any more than that.
I may also just not have the same information you do though, so if I am totally wrong, by all means tell me. I just couldn't find anything after a quick search.
It appears Spectro recently redesigned their website, but it is there about PAO:
" This why we formulate with
the Group IV PAO. It is stable and oxidation resistant.
In short, it is the best and most durable synthetic base
stock available.
Some competitors tout esters. We agree that esters
give great lubricity and help increase fuel economy,
and that’s one of the reasons why
we use them. We actually blend
esters in combination with other
PAOs in our full synthetic and
semi-synthetic products. By doing
this we get the benefit of the PAO
molecule’s special strengths and
performance in the challenging
4 cycle environment, but then
combine that with the additional benefits of an ester"
source: http://spectro-oils.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/2015.pdf
I buy mine online at Chaparral Motor Sports or at the dealership.
I see; I'm not saying that the products aren't 100% because I honestly do not know for sure, but that only tells me that they use them. It doesn't say how much though, so I would be leery on that 100% group IV/Group V assumption without a direct statement saying so.
I emailed them and asked them. Both companies (Spectro + Liqui-Moly) promptly provided answers and 5 or 6 specific parameters/specs' I requested. Why would any company blend a 20% PAO base? Why would you look to SDS for blend information? SDS's provide material/chemical component information for safety applications.
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Because if the SDS says it has a maximum of 20% PAO, then that is what it has. However, there could easily be information omitted. It is just easy to find out if there is mineral oil in a product through an SDS, which is why I usually look there first.
And as for why would they blend a 20% PAO base? I'm not sure I understand...why wouldn't they? Just about every product uses blends of different base oils and a product could easily have only 20% PAO in a formula.
But anyway, so what were their responses when you asked them the percentage of PAO in the products?
And as for why would they blend a 20% PAO base? I'm not sure I understand...why wouldn't they? Just about every product uses blends of different base oils and a product could easily have only 20% PAO in a formula.
But anyway, so what were their responses when you asked them the percentage of PAO in the products?
Not trying to be flippant. I asked why a 20% PAO blend simply to find out how you might answer being a tribologist.
A common reason for a 20% PAO in the base blend would be because the base is primarily Esters.
The information I was given by Spectro and Liqui-Moly is that 5w40, MA2 oils from both companies are 100% PAO base oils with no moly' in either....as I said earlier in post
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding in regards to MA2 oils. MA2 requirements originated out of the new European motorcycle standards, a small part of which are emission standards up to 10 times more stringent starting model year 2017 and increasing over the next three model years. The standards include exhaust noise limits, increased gas mileage requirements, Mechanical noise limits from the engine and transmission, tire/road noise limits. In short, shared sump machines required use of some new materials, including clutch materials in order to reduce what are now greatly reduced emission particles. One of those changes brought new clutch materials and coatings into being. Moly was also an easy emission particle to eliminate in addition to it's corrosive effect to new coatings and materials. New oil with a new clutch friction coefficient was needed...hence MA2 and a new class of oils unique to shared sump motorcycles meeting the new Euro standards.
Most of the US sourced MA2 oils listed in post are no longer available as they were unable to meet EU emission requirements.
A common reason for a 20% PAO in the base blend would be because the base is primarily Esters.
The information I was given by Spectro and Liqui-Moly is that 5w40, MA2 oils from both companies are 100% PAO base oils with no moly' in either....as I said earlier in post
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding in regards to MA2 oils. MA2 requirements originated out of the new European motorcycle standards, a small part of which are emission standards up to 10 times more stringent starting model year 2017 and increasing over the next three model years. The standards include exhaust noise limits, increased gas mileage requirements, Mechanical noise limits from the engine and transmission, tire/road noise limits. In short, shared sump machines required use of some new materials, including clutch materials in order to reduce what are now greatly reduced emission particles. One of those changes brought new clutch materials and coatings into being. Moly was also an easy emission particle to eliminate in addition to it's corrosive effect to new coatings and materials. New oil with a new clutch friction coefficient was needed...hence MA2 and a new class of oils unique to shared sump motorcycles meeting the new Euro standards.
Most of the US sourced MA2 oils listed in post are no longer available as they were unable to meet EU emission requirements.
Sorry, interruption caused me to have to continue with an additional thread.
....I would guess BelRay and Silkolene are working on or have reformulated. Redline does not blend an MA2 oil.
Many are using Castrol and Rotella. Motul tells me they will bring 7100 MA2 EU oils to US this summer. Like many, I'm only interested in GroupIV and V oils.
....I would guess BelRay and Silkolene are working on or have reformulated. Redline does not blend an MA2 oil.
Many are using Castrol and Rotella. Motul tells me they will bring 7100 MA2 EU oils to US this summer. Like many, I'm only interested in GroupIV and V oils.
Why are you not interested in performance, ahead of oil group types?
As has been pointed out by formulators on this board before, there are many ways one can refer to the various components of a fully formulated fluid. That latitude offers the opportunity for 'spec sheet' chasers to confuse themselves, or even to be led astray/mislead as compared with what they believe they know.
I wish you luck in your apparent quest.
As has been pointed out by formulators on this board before, there are many ways one can refer to the various components of a fully formulated fluid. That latitude offers the opportunity for 'spec sheet' chasers to confuse themselves, or even to be led astray/mislead as compared with what they believe they know.
I wish you luck in your apparent quest.
Originally Posted By: JonfromCB
Not trying to be flippant. I asked why a 20% PAO blend simply to find out how you might answer being a tribologist.
A common reason for a 20% PAO in the base blend would be because the base is primarily Esters.
The information I was given by Spectro and Liqui-Moly is that 5w40, MA2 oils from both companies are 100% PAO base oils with no moly' in either....as I said earlier in post
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding in regards to MA2 oils. MA2 requirements originated out of the new European motorcycle standards, a small part of which are emission standards up to 10 times more stringent starting model year 2017 and increasing over the next three model years. The standards include exhaust noise limits, increased gas mileage requirements, Mechanical noise limits from the engine and transmission, tire/road noise limits. In short, shared sump machines required use of some new materials, including clutch materials in order to reduce what are now greatly reduced emission particles. One of those changes brought new clutch materials and coatings into being. Moly was also an easy emission particle to eliminate in addition to it's corrosive effect to new coatings and materials. New oil with a new clutch friction coefficient was needed...hence MA2 and a new class of oils unique to shared sump motorcycles meeting the new Euro standards.
Most of the US sourced MA2 oils listed in post are no longer available as they were unable to meet EU emission requirements.
Sorry if my response came off as combative or defensive as that wasn't my intention. I am just asking questions.
As I said, I don't know their formulations, so they very well may be all PAO, I just didn't see the evidence myself, so I was trying to find out where the information came from. I missed that they specifically said the products were 100% PAO in your previous post, and I have absolutely no reason to believe that isn't true, so that is certainly good enough for me on that front.
As a tribologist, the reason to have a base oil blend with 20% PAO would be for performance. If I were trying to gain a specific performance level, especially a 5W rating, 20% PAO should be enough PAO added to a group III blend to attain the low temperature performance I needed without increasing cost too much. For a 5W-40 semi-synthetic I would say that was just about the perfect ratio of PAO to group II or III.
Not trying to be flippant. I asked why a 20% PAO blend simply to find out how you might answer being a tribologist.
A common reason for a 20% PAO in the base blend would be because the base is primarily Esters.
The information I was given by Spectro and Liqui-Moly is that 5w40, MA2 oils from both companies are 100% PAO base oils with no moly' in either....as I said earlier in post
There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding in regards to MA2 oils. MA2 requirements originated out of the new European motorcycle standards, a small part of which are emission standards up to 10 times more stringent starting model year 2017 and increasing over the next three model years. The standards include exhaust noise limits, increased gas mileage requirements, Mechanical noise limits from the engine and transmission, tire/road noise limits. In short, shared sump machines required use of some new materials, including clutch materials in order to reduce what are now greatly reduced emission particles. One of those changes brought new clutch materials and coatings into being. Moly was also an easy emission particle to eliminate in addition to it's corrosive effect to new coatings and materials. New oil with a new clutch friction coefficient was needed...hence MA2 and a new class of oils unique to shared sump motorcycles meeting the new Euro standards.
Most of the US sourced MA2 oils listed in post are no longer available as they were unable to meet EU emission requirements.
Sorry if my response came off as combative or defensive as that wasn't my intention. I am just asking questions.
As I said, I don't know their formulations, so they very well may be all PAO, I just didn't see the evidence myself, so I was trying to find out where the information came from. I missed that they specifically said the products were 100% PAO in your previous post, and I have absolutely no reason to believe that isn't true, so that is certainly good enough for me on that front.
As a tribologist, the reason to have a base oil blend with 20% PAO would be for performance. If I were trying to gain a specific performance level, especially a 5W rating, 20% PAO should be enough PAO added to a group III blend to attain the low temperature performance I needed without increasing cost too much. For a 5W-40 semi-synthetic I would say that was just about the perfect ratio of PAO to group II or III.
and I would add, with low or mid saps oils, PAO is likely blended in aswell to keep the oxidation levels under control. The PAO part of the oil would not oxidise as readily.
Gulf Formula GMX 5w30 is a full group III synthetic, full saps.
Gulf formula GVX 5w30 is a mid saps oil, with about 25% PAO. The better base is used to offset the reduction in zddp and overbased detergents in the ACEA testing.
Gulf Formula GMX 5w30 is a full group III synthetic, full saps.
Gulf formula GVX 5w30 is a mid saps oil, with about 25% PAO. The better base is used to offset the reduction in zddp and overbased detergents in the ACEA testing.
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Back in 2013 I corresponded with a tech rep from Mobil about Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W40. Although somewhat evasive as to their propreitary blend used, I was able to deduce with fair confidence that particular product as being a blend of Group IV PAO probably a small portion like 15 or 20%, Mobil's exclusive Group III+ VISOM product as the majority of the base, and Group V Alkylated Naphthalene as the additive carrier portion (you could literally smell the AN in it, a signature aromatic scent). Group IV/III+/V blend. Not bad. Not bad at all. I truly wish very much that XOM would offer it in 15W50 MA2 here in the States. In 10W40 at the time, however, it was MA not MA2, and not available at all as 15W50 in the US.
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