Oil opinions after dumping FF

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I have a 2016 Nissan versa that's at 1500 miles and i want to dump the factory fill (yes i know i could go farther). I decided on PPPP 5w-30 which is plenty good for the light daily driving this car will see. My question is, is there any benefit or is it "safer" to go with a semi synthetic first since the car has lower miles on it? And then changing it again to synthetic in a few thousand miles? I have also been looking at the Magnatec 5w-30 to use in between the FF and the PP.
 
Not a good idea to dump the first fill too early but, if you insist, then go full synthetic. I choose PP for my Mazda and get good UOA reports on a 6,000 mile change. Ed
 
No. And you're already 1400 miles late.

The main objective in initial oil changes on a new vehicle (engine) is to facilitate the removal of harmful manufacturing and break-in debris for those interested in long engine life.

Mr. Jim Fitch, founder of Noria Corp. has authored a book "How to select an Oil and Filter for your Car or Truck" The above statement is from page 43. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=How+to+select+an+oil+and+filter+for+your+car+or+truck

Table 13 on this same page Mr. Fitch outlines his RECOMMENDATIONS for the first few oil changes: 1st oil change within 100 miles of taking possession of the vehicle; 2nd oil change 1500 miles after 1st change, 3rd oil change 3K miles after 2nd, 4th and beyond at normal intervals. Go synthetic at 4th change.

If you've never heard of Mr. Fitch or Noria; I would suggest a cursory google search; his credentials are quite impressive in the world of lubricants. His book I referenced was written way back in 2003.

Jim Fitch is the CEO and a co-founder of Noria Corporation. He has a wealth of “in the trenches” experience in lubrication, oil analysis, tribology and machinery failure investigations. Over the past two decades, Jim has presented hundreds of courses on these subjects and has published more than 200 technical articles, papers and publications. He serves as a U.S. delegate to the ISO tribology and oil analysis working group, and has been awarded numerous patents. Since 2002, Jim has also been director and board member of the International Council for Machinery Lubrication. Among his specializations are motor oil and Engine Lubrication.

I mean no "slam" to anyone on this board, there are some quite knowledgeable people on here who are experts in their fields; but I would rank Mr. Fitch right up there and take his advice over most anyone on this board.

Nevertheless, it is your vehicle and you are the one who must sleep at night with your decision. Hope you enjoy your new vehicle.
_________________________
 
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
No. And you're already 1400 miles late.

The main objective in initial oil changes on a new vehicle (engine) is to facilitate the removal of harmful manufacturing and break-in debris for those interested in long engine life.

Mr. Jim Fitch, founder of Noria Corp. has authored a book "How to select an Oil and Filter for your Car or Truck" The above statement is from page 43. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=How+to+select+an+oil+and+filter+for+your+car+or+truck

Table 13 on this same page Mr. Fitch outlines his RECOMMENDATIONS for the first few oil changes: 1st oil change within 100 miles of taking possession of the vehicle; 2nd oil change 1500 miles after 1st change, 3rd oil change 3K miles after 2nd, 4th and beyond at normal intervals. Go synthetic at 4th change.

If you've never heard of Mr. Fitch or Noria; I would suggest a cursory google search; his credentials are quite impressive in the world of lubricants. His book I referenced was written way back in 2003.

Jim Fitch is the CEO and a co-founder of Noria Corporation. He has a wealth of “in the trenches” experience in lubrication, oil analysis, tribology and machinery failure investigations. Over the past two decades, Jim has presented hundreds of courses on these subjects and has published more than 200 technical articles, papers and publications. He serves as a U.S. delegate to the ISO tribology and oil analysis working group, and has been awarded numerous patents. Since 2002, Jim has also been director and board member of the International Council for Machinery Lubrication. Among his specializations are motor oil and Engine Lubrication.

I mean no "slam" to anyone on this board, there are some quite knowledgeable people on here who are experts in their fields; but I would rank Mr. Fitch right up there and take his advice over most anyone on this board.

Nevertheless, it is your vehicle and you are the one who must sleep at night with your decision. Hope you enjoy your new vehicle.
_________________________


That book would be great if we were living in 2004. Oil formulations and machinery techniques have come a long way in 13 years. Rendering much of the information stale.
 
I bought a new but pre-registered Suzuki Celerio for the wife. Because of the way these things work, the car will need it's first service in September (when the oil be just 4 months old and run for about 3,000 miles). This has to be done to maintain the warranty.
When this happens I am going to cry big tears because the FF 0W20 (Idemitsu sourced??) is just brilliant. With just 1,600 miles on the clock, the car has averaged 73.3 mpg (that's Imperial gallons, not US) and the average is still trending up, presumably as the engine breaks in. If I'm right, this oil contains almost 1000 ppm if Moly and I suspect it's this that's pushing the FE so high.
I'm anticipating that the oil they use at the first service, even if it's 0W-20 will be nothing like as good.
I have half a mind to ask the dealer to collect the used oil for me so that after the service book is ticked, I can go home, drain out the fresh oil and put the good FF back and run it out to the 12,500 mile recommended drain interval!
 
Originally Posted By: Eddie
Not a good idea to dump the first fill too early but, if you insist, then go full synthetic. I choose PP for my Mazda and get good UOA reports on a 6,000 mile change. Ed
WHY
 
Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Im not sure how much things have changed in 13 years but im sure there were some changes


I agree. I while there probably were some changes in the past 13 years, I don't think they were life changing revolutionary changes in the actual manufacturing of engines. Engine designs have advanced but I don't think the actual mfg. of an engine has changed much.
 
Originally Posted By: BeerCan
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
No. And you're already 1400 miles late.

The main objective in initial oil changes on a new vehicle (engine) is to facilitate the removal of harmful manufacturing and break-in debris for those interested in long engine life.

Mr. Jim Fitch, founder of Noria Corp. has authored a book "How to select an Oil and Filter for your Car or Truck" The above statement is from page 43. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=How+to+select+an+oil+and+filter+for+your+car+or+truck

Table 13 on this same page Mr. Fitch outlines his RECOMMENDATIONS for the first few oil changes: 1st oil change within 100 miles of taking possession of the vehicle; 2nd oil change 1500 miles after 1st change, 3rd oil change 3K miles after 2nd, 4th and beyond at normal intervals. Go synthetic at 4th change.

If you've never heard of Mr. Fitch or Noria; I would suggest a cursory google search; his credentials are quite impressive in the world of lubricants. His book I referenced was written way back in 2003.

Jim Fitch is the CEO and a co-founder of Noria Corporation. He has a wealth of “in the trenches” experience in lubrication, oil analysis, tribology and machinery failure investigations. Over the past two decades, Jim has presented hundreds of courses on these subjects and has published more than 200 technical articles, papers and publications. He serves as a U.S. delegate to the ISO tribology and oil analysis working group, and has been awarded numerous patents. Since 2002, Jim has also been director and board member of the International Council for Machinery Lubrication. Among his specializations are motor oil and Engine Lubrication.

I mean no "slam" to anyone on this board, there are some quite knowledgeable people on here who are experts in their fields; but I would rank Mr. Fitch right up there and take his advice over most anyone on this board.

Nevertheless, it is your vehicle and you are the one who must sleep at night with your decision. Hope you enjoy your new vehicle.
_________________________


That book would be great if we were living in 2004. Oil formulations and machinery techniques have come a long way in 13 years. Rendering much of the information stale.


Oil formulations have only changed one category, from SM to SN. Machinery Techniques have done what? I stated my source and his credentials. Without links, sourced information or other evidence, your unfounded opinion is just that; your unfounded opinion. The information provided by Mr. Fitch is as pertinent today as it was when written; unless you can show empirical evidence that manufacturing debris is no longer part of the manufacturing process.

Watch the milling machines that cut the deck height; watch the robot pour the sand out; theres no debris of any kind in the oil galleries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr4_B9EXWSo This video is two years old and is a copy of another Youtube video five years old. I see no new techniques.

What say you? Substantiate your opinion and state your credentials? Disagree with Mr. Fitch if you can do so on an educated and researched level; otherwise, your opinion is as valuable as toilet paper.
 
Engines have an oil filter to protect the engine. FF oil usually has a high moly content (Honda, Mazda & ??)to minimize wear, especially to high loaded rubbing parts in the valve gear. FF often has assembly additives to assist in reducing scuffing and promote burnishing parts. Do I have data to prove ALL the comments I made-no, but neither do the change it very early people. So take your poison and put some faith in the manufacture and engineers who designed and tested your engine or do it your way. This discussion will never end I fear. Ed
 
If we ignore when to change out the factory fill entirely. Does anyone see a reason not to go right to synthetic? Sounds like the consensus is to just go right the the PP and call it a day.
 
Originally Posted By: JoelB
If we ignore when to change out the factory fill entirely. Does anyone see a reason not to go right to synthetic? Sounds like the consensus is to just go right the the PP and call it a day.


Plenty of OEM cars come with factory filled with Synthetic. You should be fine.
 
I'd use a dino for the first change...PYB would be great....I'd change it again at 5 or 6K and then start with the PP.

PS: Nothing wrong with going right to syn. but for a 3500 mile OCI it would be a waste...
 
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My 2016 Toyota has 0w20 synthetic from the factory. They call for the first OCI at 10,000. I will do it at 5000. Things have changed substantially since 2003-4. How many cars were running 0w20? It's pretty obvious that the manufacturers don't believe there is enough (debris) floating around in your engine to shorten the life much. I was always a proponent of dumping FF at 1000 (except Honda). But none of my engines on cars bought new had any signs of better life than the ones I bought used with 30-40,000 miles. The important part about oil changes to me is that you do them regularly and check your oil level often.

The rest of it is simply a roll of the dice. I have had issues on engines I obsessed over due to mostly non-oil related component failure. Others...zero problems...same maintenance schedule. I did learn ONE UNIVERSAL THING:

1. when you get a "good one" that has no issues at the 100k point, no leaks, no consumption...keep it until the wheels fall off.

Doog out
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Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Originally Posted By: BeerCan
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
No. And you're already 1400 miles late.

The main objective in initial oil changes on a new vehicle (engine) is to facilitate the removal of harmful manufacturing and break-in debris for those interested in long engine life.

Mr. Jim Fitch, founder of Noria Corp. has authored a book "How to select an Oil and Filter for your Car or Truck" The above statement is from page 43. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=How+to+select+an+oil+and+filter+for+your+car+or+truck

Table 13 on this same page Mr. Fitch outlines his RECOMMENDATIONS for the first few oil changes: 1st oil change within 100 miles of taking possession of the vehicle; 2nd oil change 1500 miles after 1st change, 3rd oil change 3K miles after 2nd, 4th and beyond at normal intervals. Go synthetic at 4th change.

If you've never heard of Mr. Fitch or Noria; I would suggest a cursory google search; his credentials are quite impressive in the world of lubricants. His book I referenced was written way back in 2003.

Jim Fitch is the CEO and a co-founder of Noria Corporation. He has a wealth of “in the trenches” experience in lubrication, oil analysis, tribology and machinery failure investigations. Over the past two decades, Jim has presented hundreds of courses on these subjects and has published more than 200 technical articles, papers and publications. He serves as a U.S. delegate to the ISO tribology and oil analysis working group, and has been awarded numerous patents. Since 2002, Jim has also been director and board member of the International Council for Machinery Lubrication. Among his specializations are motor oil and Engine Lubrication.

I mean no "slam" to anyone on this board, there are some quite knowledgeable people on here who are experts in their fields; but I would rank Mr. Fitch right up there and take his advice over most anyone on this board.

Nevertheless, it is your vehicle and you are the one who must sleep at night with your decision. Hope you enjoy your new vehicle.
_________________________


That book would be great if we were living in 2004. Oil formulations and machinery techniques have come a long way in 13 years. Rendering much of the information stale.


Oil formulations have only changed one category, from SM to SN. Machinery Techniques have done what? I stated my source and his credentials. Without links, sourced information or other evidence, your unfounded opinion is just that; your unfounded opinion. The information provided by Mr. Fitch is as pertinent today as it was when written; unless you can show empirical evidence that manufacturing debris is no longer part of the manufacturing process.

Watch the milling machines that cut the deck height; watch the robot pour the sand out; theres no debris of any kind in the oil galleries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr4_B9EXWSo This video is two years old and is a copy of another Youtube video five years old. I see no new techniques.

What say you? Substantiate your opinion and state your credentials? Disagree with Mr. Fitch if you can do so on an educated and researched level; otherwise, your opinion is as valuable as toilet paper.


N/M I had a big post here dissecting your reply showing the logic flaws in your argument. I have decided that you are just another internet tool that goes around getting all butt hurt when someone does not agree with you.

Just a factual point. Oil went from SL to SN since this book was researched/published and SJ was probably still relevant.
 
Originally Posted By: tojo1968
With the exception of one OC, I have used Magnatec in my Frontier and am very pleased with it.


I've thought a lot about magnatec. There seems to be a lot of favorable opinions about it and it fits well with the shorter OCI's i will be doing (lots of short trips). But here in Minnesota we get down to -20F (not including wind chill) pretty much every winter and I'm thinking the full synthetic will allow for easier starts.
 
Originally Posted By: BeerCan
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Originally Posted By: BeerCan
Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
No. And you're already 1400 miles late.

The main objective in initial oil changes on a new vehicle (engine) is to facilitate the removal of harmful manufacturing and break-in debris for those interested in long engine life.

Mr. Jim Fitch, founder of Noria Corp. has authored a book "How to select an Oil and Filter for your Car or Truck" The above statement is from page 43. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=How+to+select+an+oil+and+filter+for+your+car+or+truck

Table 13 on this same page Mr. Fitch outlines his RECOMMENDATIONS for the first few oil changes: 1st oil change within 100 miles of taking possession of the vehicle; 2nd oil change 1500 miles after 1st change, 3rd oil change 3K miles after 2nd, 4th and beyond at normal intervals. Go synthetic at 4th change.

If you've never heard of Mr. Fitch or Noria; I would suggest a cursory google search; his credentials are quite impressive in the world of lubricants. His book I referenced was written way back in 2003.

Jim Fitch is the CEO and a co-founder of Noria Corporation. He has a wealth of “in the trenches” experience in lubrication, oil analysis, tribology and machinery failure investigations. Over the past two decades, Jim has presented hundreds of courses on these subjects and has published more than 200 technical articles, papers and publications. He serves as a U.S. delegate to the ISO tribology and oil analysis working group, and has been awarded numerous patents. Since 2002, Jim has also been director and board member of the International Council for Machinery Lubrication. Among his specializations are motor oil and Engine Lubrication.

I mean no "slam" to anyone on this board, there are some quite knowledgeable people on here who are experts in their fields; but I would rank Mr. Fitch right up there and take his advice over most anyone on this board.

Nevertheless, it is your vehicle and you are the one who must sleep at night with your decision. Hope you enjoy your new vehicle.
_________________________


That book would be great if we were living in 2004. Oil formulations and machinery techniques have come a long way in 13 years. Rendering much of the information stale.


Oil formulations have only changed one category, from SM to SN. Machinery Techniques have done what? I stated my source and his credentials. Without links, sourced information or other evidence, your unfounded opinion is just that; your unfounded opinion. The information provided by Mr. Fitch is as pertinent today as it was when written; unless you can show empirical evidence that manufacturing debris is no longer part of the manufacturing process.

Watch the milling machines that cut the deck height; watch the robot pour the sand out; theres no debris of any kind in the oil galleries? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr4_B9EXWSo This video is two years old and is a copy of another Youtube video five years old. I see no new techniques.

What say you? Substantiate your opinion and state your credentials? Disagree with Mr. Fitch if you can do so on an educated and researched level; otherwise, your opinion is as valuable as toilet paper.


N/M I had a big post here dissecting your reply showing the logic flaws in your argument. I have decided that you are just another internet tool that goes around getting all butt hurt when someone does not agree with you.

Just a factual point. Oil went from SL to SN since this book was researched/published and SJ was probably still relevant.


Thank you sir. let's talk facts. Current oil categories per API have obviously changed (however slight), but engine manufacturing techniques which GENERATE DEBRIS have changed how? It appears that you have pointed out the obvious (oil categories updating) and ignored the obvious (engine manufacturing techniques) Would you care to now instruct the class on the other side of the equation?

Please state and provide links, sources, or video data (something a little more substantial than your opinion)? As to how "Modern engine manufacturing techniques" have so radically changed from 2003 to 2016 that there is no leftover debris in the engine?

Here's a refresher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr4_B9EXWSo This is why Mr. Jim Fitch recommends FF oil changes as outlined above. Please keep your response factual. Thank you.

Edit: FYI, the youtube video is two (2) years old.
 
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