Golf R

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Originally Posted By: surfstar
Well, with current deals, GTIs are easily had for $22k. I can't remember how many comparison reviews, after pointing out how the EVO or WRX was the faster/better track car, said they would buy and drive the GTI as a DD over any of them. Much more liveable.

I'm not saying these things, they're just what I've read.


and yes the R is overpriced, IMO

Funny, also, as you seem okay with an Impreza (aka WRX) that tops $30k with minimal options added? A Golf is easily a more refined platform to build from, than an Impreza.


Look at the VW inventory. It skews towards the 4-door which ups the base price to starting around $26,500. That is not cheap. You can find an unwanted 2-door, manual, base for a decent price... (OTD for $22K) but you can spend $34K for an "autobahn" too. While because VW can't up-charge strippers due to image, the WRX folks can slap $5,000 additional on MSRP and still sell it. That much demand. One of the reasons I looked elsewhere despite being somewhat of a Subaru fanboy. Plus, if I was going to spend $30 grand on a WRX, it would be an bugeye '02 for $5000 and then use the 25,000 returning it to stock.

Yes, when I was shopping, they had the GTI to $23K BEFORE I picked up the brochure. It was wild. Every sentence from the manager dropped the vehicle price $500. I was also the only person on the lot on a Saturday afternoon. So yes, I could get the VW 2-door for $22+ delivery + extra +tax. OTD would have been closer to $23-23.5K However, I did not find the GTI any more "livable" than the others. It was not as loud at the Subie and the plastics were better than the Ford (but not designed any better). More "adult" but not necessarily better. The shorter wheelbase did not help on NC concrete roads. My Hyundai rode better than the GTI and for a base mode comparison, the Hyundai was better for "refinement" if you ignored the door-closing clunk noise. MSRP and OTD had the VW and the GC to within $400. But then again, I go a V6 RWD for under $24K. VW should be between 22K and 28K for most models with the R coming in around/under the 30K range+options (I cans ee folks going crazy here so why not... I am easing on that position).
 
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There is a game I play with friends, and it is "What car do you buy if someone crashes into you and you get paid well for injuries?"

If someone crashed into me and had to pay for injuries, I would buy a Golf R or whatever Ford calls their current rally car.

I would probably choose the VW because I like the way German cars feel, but I would need to test drive the Ford before making my decision. One advantage Ford has is that it would probably be simpler to work on when compared to a VW.
 
The Golf R is a really impressive piece of hardware. What really sets it apart from the RS or STI is the DSG trans. For anyone wanting really fast acceleration, it can't be beat. Tons of aftermarket if you want more power.

Sure, its expensive, and you can play the I would rather game with a lot of cars, but the Golf R really nails it for an automatic AWD rocket ship.

If they offered the Golf R Variant (Wagon) i would seriously consider upgrading.
 
Originally Posted By: dareo
The Golf R is a really impressive piece of hardware. What really sets it apart from the RS or STI is the DSG trans. For anyone wanting really fast acceleration, it can't be beat. Tons of aftermarket if you want more power.

Sure, its expensive, and you can play the I would rather game with a lot of cars, but the Golf R really nails it for an automatic AWD rocket ship.

If they offered the Golf R Variant (Wagon) i would seriously consider upgrading.


The DSG brings up a good point. While I have two manual cars now, for me, I would want the DSG. Its as good as it gets without having a 3rd pedal (aside from real high end stuff). I test drove a GTI and an 08 R32 with it, and both were fantastic. I'm sure its only gotten better. I was kind of hoping the Focus RS would offer some form of dual clutch auto, but at the same time the manual for them is a proven formula so the trans should hold up.

One comment that I liked I just heard on a podcast, was that one issue with the "Golf R" is the naming. Its not really an "R". More of a "GT". Its not really super raw or race oriented, which is OK, but the naming would have you think its rough riding, and track focused.
 
The DSG is simply faster and it holds power well, however, i would probably get the 3 pedals just because i'm a purist for manuals. You can't deny its abilities.

If you upgrade the intake, downpipe, and get a stage 2 reflash ($1900 total) A golf R DSG can do 11.8 second quarter mile. Pretty dang fast for a blend in four door automatic that can cruise at 30 mpg.
 
Originally Posted By: dareo
The DSG is simply faster and it holds power well, however, i would probably get the 3 pedals just because i'm a purist for manuals. You can't deny its abilities.

If you upgrade the intake, downpipe, and get a stage 2 reflash ($1900 total) A golf R DSG can do 11.8 second quarter mile. Pretty dang fast for a blend in four door automatic that can cruise at 30 mpg.


That is actually wicked fast. Do you know if the motor is built up over the standard 2.0? Forged everything? better cooling?
 
( Originally Posted by Arin@APR )
Cylinder head (made from a different alloy compared to other engines in this module because of higher thermal stress)
Exhaust valves (hollow, higher Ni content, nitrided)
Exhaust valve seat rings (improved temperature stability and wear resistance)
Exhaust camshaft (adapted valve timings)
Compression ratio 9.3:1 with different pistons
Piston cooling jets (higher flow rate)
High pressure injectors (even higher flow rate)
Exhaust turbocharger
Charge pressures of up to 17.4 PSI (1.2 bar)
High performance main radiator with 1-2 auxiliary radiators (depending on country specifications)
Additional acoustic modifications have been made in order to achieve a sporty sound - use of a sound actuator (for the occupant cell) and active exhaust flaps in the exhaust system
 
Originally Posted By: dareo
What really sets it apart from the RS or STI is the DSG trans. For anyone wanting really fast acceleration, it can't be beat.


That is like bragging that your wife is hotter... and how your virginity is intact because her ex comes in to do all the work. The DSG is expensive OPTION so why not Audi it? Also, you can get that same DSG in the ho-hum GTI and keep close with a Manual Golf R. I just do not see a point to the vehicle. (See my Volkswagon rage)

The only time you might want the DSG is when you are doing lap-times... and if you are doing lap times in a $40,000 Golf... well... that is "cute". It CAN be beat. Even at that pricepoint of $40K, the Golf R DSG would be ripped apart by the displacement of a $35K Camaro.

Manual-to-Manual, the STI is still a lot faster. The DSG does edge the STI out but not by much (and I am guessing it is the extra shifts of the shorter-ratio manual). My $15 grand cheaper RWD "Korean Kamaro" is just as quick as the manual Golf R. Which lies the heart of the problem. The GTI MkI and MkII were great because they were both faster and cheaper than the sportscars and even some supercars. The VR6 versions were quick and not "as" expensive. However, now, the Golf R is not only more expensive than a lot of sportscars, it is also slower... (the same could almost be said for the STI as well).
 
https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresu...archSource=SORT

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresu...archSource=SORT

A DSG GTI is the same price range as a base Genesis coupe
A hatchback is infinitely more usable as a DD that may need to carry additional items at times. We get that you [self-admittedly] "hate" VWs. But stop spouting incorrect statements about how overpriced they are. They are CURRENTLY not. The R is, arguably, but not one of the other models.
The GTI will also get up to 10 mpg more than your car on highway trips.
Easily upgrade-able with tunes.

Continue to bash away and show your bias, not intelligence, though. Its working so well.
 
To be fair,i think the intended prices of some VWs (or MSRP) are overpriced. I'd say the R, CC, and GLI are in Audi territory. The fact they are selling cheap right now is due to low demand and diesel gate, neither of which were part of the strategic plan I'm sure.
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
That is like bragging that your wife is hotter... and how your virginity is intact because her ex comes in to do all the work.


LOL, what a weird analogy.
 
Originally Posted By: surfstar
https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresu...archSource=SORT

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresu...archSource=SORT

A DSG GTI is the same price range as a base Genesis coupe
A hatchback is infinitely more usable as a DD that may need to carry additional items at times. We get that you [self-admittedly] "hate" VWs. But stop spouting incorrect statements about how overpriced they are. They are CURRENTLY not. The R is, arguably, but not one of the other models.
The GTI will also get up to 10 mpg more than your car on highway trips.
Easily upgrade-able with tunes.

Continue to bash away and show your bias, not intelligence, though. Its working so well.


Here was my car search. Please read and see my "intelligence/bias" when I was putting down my actual cash: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4086338/1

Here is the GTI excerpt:
Quote:
5. GTI: Price. The sales manager knocked 3 grand off the price when talking to the Mrs while I was on the test drive and then was willing to get it to 23-24K OTD BEFORE haggling. Might have offered free child -care too. VW is desperate around here as it was an empty lot on a Saturday. So my biggest complaint was the price, they solved that. However, the route we took undid the GTI. I drove on a road I drive regularly and never noticed how bad it was. Not sure if it was the model or something else but the ride was not as good as some folks rant about. It was better than others but the short-wheelbase was catching IMO. Wife did not care for the interior styling.


Now about that Genny VS GTI... V6 & RWD against a FWD & Pop4... for the same price AND the Hyundai is better equipped and better built. Again, the MSRP being the same is not the same as being overprice. It is all about "value" for what you are investing. Hyundai offers more for the pricepoint than VW. Right now, the GTI (with DSG) are (includes their "online" discounts): $ 24,700 (MSRP $28), $31,800, $35,600, 35,600 (again), 35,600 (again), $35,500 (again-ish). These are GTIs not Rs. Now, VW is struggling with Dieselgate but the GTI sales are strong... so there is some but less discount depending on how the dealership is doing. In a liberal-lovefest eco-mania area, VW is really hurting. Other places, not so much. However, you can't cherry-pick and say that other dealers/makes are not dealing as well. The Gennies around here are $27, $27, $28, and $32K (all with autos), but selling for $24K. With one dealer, the best deal was an Ultimate (MSRP 34K including options) for $28k. However, because of the sunroof issues and my height, I did not spring for that. The Genny is a decent sized car and storage is a non issue for me. I put the kids seat in the trunk & out of sight when not in use. I can fold down rear seats and as long as it is not a Dishwasher sized item (trunk opening is the limiting factor), I am good. The amount of space in the back of the Genny is about the same as the GTI when not blocking rear visibility. I would bet that the sq ft of the trunk area (X &Y axis) is more in GTI the I could probably fit a wider "flat" item too.

Oh fuel economy and "ignorance", ha, that is my "Doc" area.
wink.gif
MPG is definitely in the GTI's favor (duh, physics) but I did just do a 1000 mile trip on I40 and was able to get 32 MPG out of the 3.8. Shame the 2.0T is not still kicking. You can get respectable mileage out of a V6 on the highway. This is not a dash-feel good number. Miles driven divided by gallons used between fill ups, not the CPU. Not bad IMO. I can get 40mpg out of the MR2. Really the V6's undoing is the city mileage and "spirited driving". Locally and quick driving will drop me 20-23 very quickly. Also, I quickly noticed that the four-bangers lose a LOT of MPG driving in the mountains here. My wifes old Fit dropped from 38-40 around DC to barely 30. Our outback (2.5) has more issues with weight and hills so it is about 23-25. So the Genny doing 22-ish in the city is acceptable and was the same as my older 2.5 Legacy. The other side of the fuel issue is that I might driver 6K in a year. So, the MPG difference does not really bother me as much if I was doing a mega commute.
 
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Originally Posted By: glock19
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
That is like bragging that your wife is hotter... and how your virginity is intact because her ex comes in to do all the work.


LOL, what a weird analogy.


Yea, honestly I've totally come around on the whole auto vs manual debate. With a true quality dual clutch car, you're still just as involved in the process of selecting the gear. You just don't operate the clutch. Its faster, more reliable in terms of performance, and you can put it in auto for the days you hit traffic. Its pretty rare now I go on a nice drive where I think "wow I'm glad I have a manual transmission". When its fun its really fun, but most of the time its a chore anymore around here.
 
Originally Posted By: glock19
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
That is like bragging that your wife is hotter... and how your virginity is intact because her ex comes in to do all the work.


LOL, what a weird analogy.


Thanks!?!?!? My brain is broken and I don't like automatics. Witchcraft design to help those that spend more money on devilry.
 
Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
Yea, honestly I've totally come around on the whole auto vs manual debate. With a true quality dual clutch car, you're still just as involved in the process of selecting the gear. You just don't operate the clutch. Its faster, more reliable in terms of performance, and you can put it in auto for the days you hit traffic. Its pretty rare now I go on a nice drive where I think "wow I'm glad I have a manual transmission". When its fun its really fun, but most of the time its a chore anymore around here.


And maybe this is where my "disagreement" with partially exists with VW. I will not double-guess a DSG in track-time oriented car where the clock is the final and only judge. I see the purpose... and even handling "mega" engine "luxury" hypercars that would have a clutch as heavy as Vermont. I get the engineering and application there. I don't like it but I get it. I just want to ask VW "[censored]" with the Golf, especially if someone points to "brag" about the DSG as a selling feature beaus "faster" but not really. There is over a half-second diff between the DSG and the Manual... why? Maybe it is because the manual is dying and VW has been a champion of those Jetta wagons and a clutch that I feel "betrayed?" -not really. I just don't see the point in the GTI/R. Either it is an enthusiast car (default the to the manual) or it is a luxury-GT-like car. A luxury, GT Golf? No, that is spelled Audi. Why, VW why? I don't get the choices VW is making with its products. The DSG seems to be targeting the "Murican" avoidance of a stick while focusing on publication numbers... for a premium price. So much for being the Euro defender of the manual. I just do not get this brand's choices and it drives me nuts.

I do love the manual, even a "bad" temperamental one that is in the Hyundai. Sure, the catch point seems random, the shifter is moody... but just like "my kid", they are still better than any other "kid" despite keeping me up all night fussing.
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
even a "bad" temperamental one that is in the Hyundai. Sure, the catch point seems random, the shifter is moody


This can be rectified with nothing more than a fluid change.
 
Again, you are off-base ranting.

You rant like the GTI/R ONLY comes in a DSG version. It has an available 6 speed manual, just like your genesis. Why not rant against Hyundai for their soul-robbing 8spd auto? You know, the one offered in your coupe?

I do not get where your rants even stem from.
 
Originally Posted By: surfstar
Again, you are off-base ranting.

You rant like the GTI/R ONLY comes in a DSG version. It has an available 6 speed manual, just like your genesis. Why not rant against Hyundai for their soul-robbing 8spd auto? You know, the one offered in your coupe?

I do not get where your rants even stem from.


I think if I understand correctly its more based on a price to performance issue. He's saying why spend 40k on a golf when a 35k camaro will spank it around a track. I kind of get the argument, as I'm mostly about "cheap speed" myself. I bought a dodge caliber SRT-4 recently as a daily driver and bit of a toy, so obviously I'm in tune to performance per dollar. I could even say that my Caliber has the same power as the Golf R, and with a tune pretty close acceleration numbers (roughly same 1/4 times). But I am under no illusion they're even in the same league of car. My Mustang would out do a stock golf R in the 1/4 mile also (Ran a 13.2 with poor tires *racer excuse*), but lets be real, my Mustang is a 2 door plastic box with a truck engine compared to something like the golf R.

Part of what you're paying for with the VW is simply engineering. Reviewers have been saying it forever, the GTI/R are usually best in class. Resale value is typically high on them (not now due to dieselgate, but it will return I'm sure). If SOLELY basing a cars worth on its straight line performance, sure the Golf R is far from the best out the gate. Same could be said for the lower end 3 series BMWs. But a Golf R is a 4 door hatch, with a great AWD system, that also happens to be pretty darn capable. I'm not sure I'd pay 40k for it, but that seems to be right about the price for a car like that.

The auto vs manual debate seems to be mostly personal preference.
 
Cutting through all the b.s., I think futuredoc would like to see the R discontinued (or priced under 30k) and the GTI in the 20-25k range. Then it would all make sense to him. Right now he doesn't have a theme for VW apart from maybe "cheap euro" but that is undermined by the pricing. Think Mr. Spock with emotions.
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
even a "bad" temperamental one that is in the Hyundai. Sure, the catch point seems random, the shifter is moody


This can be rectified with nothing more than a fluid change.


Maybe, it is a common complaint for the car. Almost every review touches on it. It just seems like that was one thing Hyundai could not quite correct. Still, it is character. It does not bother me as I am often a very focused shifter. I actually like the challenge. It is night-day with the MR2 so I like that. MR2's shift is almost push-button clutch.
 
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