2009 Miata Race Car, M1 5w20

[Jetronic]

that was a nearly new car, not yet run in.

also, his oil temps droped by 10°F, that's nothing considering the massive drop in viscosity (3.5 hths to 2.6?)

 

[nickolas84]

But viscosity is also temperature related. The following is the first chart a google search gave me. So in reality the difference is not so great because 10F do make a difference in viscocity as well. Also bare in mind that HTHS is meassured at 150C and Mazda is ok with that number. But there is no way you will ever see 150C on a stock engine. The power loss due to the heat soak will be so massive you would go lighter on your car long before that.

 

[dgunay]

Originally Posted By: nickolas84
Originally Posted By: dgunay
Please check this post, I hope this helps!

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=38c40c695918e32732aa66d138dc2d98&t=91820


This post makes no sense...he had higher oil temps with the thinner oil, which should not happen under same conditions. Propably he run the engine harder or outside temp was higher when he had the 20 grade oil in. Having said that, 130C is close to the limit you want to run any engine oil.
Racing the GT86-BRZ with the stock 20 grade oil has been done in bitog and with great results. The same user even made the comparison with oil analysis with a 30 grade oil and the results were in favor of the stock 20 grade. You can find it here http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3305134/1


That car is less than 4000 miles and you really show that as a proof? No thanks. Of course, the car is breaking in, so the first sample is worse than the second one, and I bet the third sample will be better. So the results were in favor of newer oil, it's not related to viscosity.

If you read the article that I sent in the previous post, he clearly states:

Quote:
The blue is the 0W20, and the yellow is the 5W30. You can see pretty clearly how the 5W30 helped keep oil pressures higher as temperatures increased, but didn't really give us abnormally high pressures at lower temperatures. Both tests were run on track here at the Motorsport Ranch, with ambient temperatures around 85-90F.


I really don't understand why you think that the test is biased.

If you really think thinner oil is better for hot weather and extreme conditions, can you please explain why do some manufacturers require thicker oil for severe conditions instead of lighter weight?

And let me tell you, 130c is not close to the limit, as long as you have sufficient oil pressure, you are good to go. Many people see 300F - 150C on track without oil cooler. I admit I wouldn't feel comfortable if it's over 140 but I've seen 148-150C's in the past, no problem so far.

 

[nickolas84]

If an engine shows exceptional wear rate, being new makes the feat even more impressive not questionable. If you take into account the left over oil wear metals, actuall wear is negligible. Like 2ppm-1000miles of iron for an engine that is still green and is tracked.

Also, when the results of an experiment go against the laws of physics, something should be wrong with the experiment.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: nickolas84
Also bare in mind that HTHS is meassured at 150C and Mazda is ok with that number. But there is no way you will ever see 150C on a stock engine. The power loss due to the heat soak will be so massive you would go lighter on your car long before that.

The oil can easily be flash heated to such temperatures. There's a reason that HTHS is important, and the 150 C figure isn't totally out to lunch.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: nickolas84
But viscosity is also temperature related. The following is the first chart a google search gave me. So in reality the difference is not so great because 10F do make a difference in viscocity as well. Also bare in mind that HTHS is meassured at 150C and Mazda is ok with that number. But there is no way you will ever see 150C on a stock engine. The power loss due to the heat soak will be so massive you would go lighter on your car long before that.

The 150°C HTHS is the oil temperature in the bearings. It's quite reasonable that the oil temp in the big ends is 30°C higher than in the sump under normal driving conditions. If you're seeing 130°C bulk temps during trackdays and higher rpm usage, I'd expect the oil inside the big ends to be 170°C AT LEAST.

 

[09_GXP]

Sry for being away, was traveling for work. Lots of good discussion here. I'm running Redline 30wt Race Oil now which is on the light side for a 30wt but contains extra wear protection. I'm not considering bumping it up to 40wt as this would cost too much power (I know it's only 1-2 hp) and the car was close on coolant temps last race so I don't want to cause any extra heat. I will be dropping this oil sometime in the next month or so and getting a UOA prior to my next fill. I will be very interested to see the results and determine where to go next.

 

[Jetronic]

How did the oil temp change going from the 0w20 to the Redline?

The PAO/POE mix of redline can withstand much higher temperatures than a mineral or hydrocracked synthetic, so no worries there. But of course viscosity goes down with temperature.

 

[09_GXP]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
How did the oil temp change going from the 0w20 to the Redline?



Never ran in similar enough conditions to make a comparison. Ran warmer with Redline but it was also 25+ DegF warmer ambient temps.

 

[09_GXP]

Originally Posted By: dgunay
I would definitely use w30. w20 is recommended in North America, but w30 anywhere else in the world. You can even try w40.

In fact, you don't need an O2 sensor. Since you always track your car, that means it always runs on open loop, and open loop eliminates the o2 sensor reading. In other words, your o2 sensor even doesn't work most of the time on track. Probably it just works when you're idling.

If you don't have A/F gauge (with the sensor) so just tune your car with the OE primary o2 (assuming it's a wideband sensor), don't forget to tune low rpm-low load cells when you tune it, then take it out and save some money.


Just to close the loop on this. I installed a new O2 sensor this afternoon and it made a decent change to the driveability. When I first fired the car up it almost died but the caught an idle that sounded different than before. Previously, I would get a decent puddle of raw fuel out the tailpipe on its first start. No more! Driving the car around to bed in the brakes the low throttle response much snappier. Full throttle is unchanged (as expected).

Overall, very worthwhile change as it should improve performance in maintenance throttle corners.

 

[dgunay]

Originally Posted By: 09_GXP
Originally Posted By: dgunay
I would definitely use w30. w20 is recommended in North America, but w30 anywhere else in the world. You can even try w40.

In fact, you don't need an O2 sensor. Since you always track your car, that means it always runs on open loop, and open loop eliminates the o2 sensor reading. In other words, your o2 sensor even doesn't work most of the time on track. Probably it just works when you're idling.

If you don't have A/F gauge (with the sensor) so just tune your car with the OE primary o2 (assuming it's a wideband sensor), don't forget to tune low rpm-low load cells when you tune it, then take it out and save some money.


Just to close the loop on this. I installed a new O2 sensor this afternoon and it made a decent change to the driveability. When I first fired the car up it almost died but the caught an idle that sounded different than before. Previously, I would get a decent puddle of raw fuel out the tailpipe on its first start. No more! Driving the car around to bed in the brakes the low throttle response much snappier. Full throttle is unchanged (as expected).

Overall, very worthwhile change as it should improve performance in maintenance throttle corners.


If you use stock ECU/Tune, you have a [censored] fuel map.

If it's tuned, whoever tuned that ecu is a lazyass didn't even bother tuning low rpm/load tables. In this case, you need to find another tuner. Also, you don't need any kind of o2 sensor as long as it's 100% dedicated for track days or racing.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: 09_GXP
I'm running Redline 30wt Race Oil now which is on the light side for a 30wt but contains extra wear protection. I'm not considering bumping it up to 40wt as this would cost too much power (I know it's only 1-2 hp) and the car was close on coolant temps last race so I don't want to cause any extra heat.

Because of it's PAO/POE chemistry and lack of VIIs RL 30WT race oil is not light despite it's KV100 of 10.0cSt but at the heavy end of the 30 grade range due to it's HTHSV of about 3.6cP. It's HTHSV is actually on par with some light 0W/5W-40s but heavier on start-up due to it's low 141 VI.
Also you don't need the 2,200 ppm of ZDDP that RL race oils contain; their street oils already contain elevated AW additive levels compared to typical SM/SN PMCOs. A better RL choice would be their 0W-20, which with it's HTHSV of 2.9cP is quite a bit heavier than M1 5W-20 and better thought of as a light 30 grade oil, and even that may be heavier than necessary depending on your maximum oil temp's and minimum high rpm oil pressure.
Joe Gibbs Driven race oils recommend nothing heavier than their 5W-20 for even modified road raced Miatas and Ford Duratecs.

I would get back to basics first. Does your car have a set of oil gauges installed? Both oil pressure and oil temp's?
The first thing you want to make sure is that you're maintaining solid oil pressure under high G cornering and braking.
Occasional oil starvation is common on wet sumped cars that are tracked particularly with modified suspensions and sticker tires. That could explain the higher than normal Al and Cu wear numbers.

The following are a couple of 0W-20 UOAs from my track car which has a 2L four cyl not much more powerful than the Duratec based Mazda engine:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4042308/1

 

[09_GXP]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: 09_GXP
I'm running Redline 30wt Race Oil now which is on the light side for a 30wt but contains extra wear protection. I'm not considering bumping it up to 40wt as this would cost too much power (I know it's only 1-2 hp) and the car was close on coolant temps last race so I don't want to cause any extra heat.

Because of it's PAO/POE chemistry and lack of VIIs RL 30WT race oil is not light despite it's KV100 of 10.0cSt but at the heavy end of the 30 grade range due to it's HTHSV of about 3.6cP. It's HTHSV is actually on par with some light 0W/5W-40s but heavier on start-up due to it's low 141 VI.
Also you don't need the 2,200 ppm of ZDDP that RL race oils contain; their street oils already contain elevated AW additive levels compared to typical SM/SN PMCOs. A better RL choice would be their 0W-20, which with it's HTHSV of 2.9cP is quite a bit heavier than M1 5W-20 and better thought of as a light 30 grade oil, and even that may be heavier than necessary depending on your maximum oil temp's and minimum high rpm oil pressure.
Joe Gibbs Driven race oils recommend nothing heavier than their 5W-20 for even modified road raced Miatas and Ford Duratecs.

I would get back to basics first. Does your car have a set of oil gauges installed? Both oil pressure and oil temp's?
The first thing you want to make sure is that you're maintaining solid oil pressure under high G cornering and braking.
Occasional oil starvation is common on wet sumped cars that are tracked particularly with modified suspensions and sticker tires. That could explain the higher than normal Al and Cu wear numbers.

The following are a couple of 0W-20 UOAs from my track car which has a 2L four cyl not much more powerful than the Duratec based Mazda engine:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4042308/1


Lots of good info here. I'm running the RL race oil based on what has been proven to make HP on the dyno from a group that runs Miatas exclusively. Also I've worked with Dave at Redline to determine what would work best in this specific engine. Both Dave and the race shop had the same conclusion of 30wt Race Oil that would provide the best protection and power. With a bump down to 20wt Race Oil if I really want the little bit extra power.

The car is effectively what was used for the MX-5 Cup series so there is a ton of research done on it to determine what works best with this specific car. No issues with maintaining oil pressure.

 

[CATERHAM]

I see that RL recommends their 20WT race oil for road raced Miatas.

It should be noted that RL first and foremost in the business of selling motor oil. Their race oils with a TBN of 1-2 are intended for very short OCIs in the 500-1,000 miles. That's fine for out and out race engines but a waste of oil for a stock Miata engine.
I don't believe their is any wear or power advantage with RL race oils over their PCMO oils for your modestly powered Miata and you should be able to get at least 3,000 track miles out of their street oils without shortening you cat' life assuming you're still required to retain the cat'.

Heck, there are pure race engines that use off-the-shelf PCMO's!

 

[09_GXP]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I see that RL recommends their 20WT race oil for road raced Miatas.

It should be noted that RL first and foremost in the business of selling motor oil. Their race oils with a TBN of 1-2 are intended for very short OCIs in the 500-1,000 miles. That's fine for out and out race engines but a waste of oil for a stock Miata engine.
I don't believe their is any wear or power advantage with RL race oils over their PCMO oils for your modestly powered Miata and you should be able to get at least 3,000 track miles out of their street oils without shortening you cat' life assuming you're still required to retain the cat'.

Heck, there are pure race engines that use off-the-shelf PCMO's!





The 20wt recommendation is for spec miata motors that need every 1/4 hp to get an advantage in that class. I can tell you that I when I went from the M1 5w20 that was in the car when I bought it I saw a small improvement in power both through acceleration rates on my data logger and speed traps against other cars. Dave at Redline says it provides more power and this appears supported by my data (actual numbers not seat of the pants feel).

Looking at my racing budget the Redline Race Oil accounts for 1.1% of my total budget. I've lost pole at Road America (2:40s) by 0.007s (11 inches over a 4 miles lap). If the Redline Race Oil provides just a touch more power than a standard PCMO it is definitely worth the very minor cost to me and therefore not a waste. The great thing about oils are there are a ton of different options for everyone and their individual goals. For me I'm hoping Redline can carry me to a championship.

 

[CATERHAM]

One point I'm making is that there is no power advantage with RL race oils vs their own PCMO's when comparing the exact same operational viscosites as determined by oil pressure.

I use RL products and have used their engine oils in my track car in the past; 10W-30, 5W-30 and a 10WT/5W-20 blend. I then moved onto the very high VI Japanese 0W-20s (which also claim oils with a low coefficient of friction as RL does) and it's those very light high VI oils that maximize the most power.
The mechanism for maximizing fuel economy and power from motor oil is the same.

That said, RL only claims a 1-2% advantage due to the low CoF of their oils, so whatever you've determined from your butt dino with the heavy RL 30WT vs whatever the 20 grade this UOA oil is, it's not the oil, as you've lost that much due to the higher oil drag alone.