Need Coolant Advice for 2000 Suzuki Motorcycle

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ZeeOSix

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I've been running Pestone Extended Life 5 yr/150K mi (Dex-Cool orange formula) in my 2000 Suzuki Hayabusa for the last 10+ years. I did a coolant change yesterday and saw some evidence of small black rubbery debris in the drained out coolant. Wasn't a ton of debris, but something I noticed when inspecting the drained coolant. I was also using "Water Wetter" along with the Prestone at a mix of 1 oz per quart per the directions.

Doing some research, I found out that the head gasket on this engine is a 3-layer metal gasket, but it appears to have a thin layer of rubber type material on the top and bottom layers for sealing purposes. So the coolant is in contact with the edges of this rubber layer as it travel between the cylinder block and head. Based on the looks of the black rubbery debris I saw, this is most likely the area where the material came from. See the attached photo I found of the OEM head gasket.

Maybe what I saw was just normal material degradation that would occur regardless of what coolant was used ... after all, the bike is 16+ years old.
21.gif


So the question is ... is the Dex-Cool formula compatible with rubber materials? I would assume so since there are other rubber parts in a cooling system, like water pump seals, T-stat housing O-ring and rubber seals on the radiator cap. I would assume all coolants would be very rubber material compatible.

What about the "Water Wetter"? How compatible is that with rubber materials? I'm wondering if that might be a factor here.

If I went with a different coolant formula, what would I use that has an extended life rating (5 years/150K)? I just put fresh Dex-Cool in the bike yesterday, but if there is any concern that it's harming the rubber on the head gasket design, then I'll drain it, flush the system and go with a coolant that's maybe better - what would that be?

 
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
What about using Zerex Asian vehicle coolant?
http://www.valvoline.com/our-products/antifreeze-products/zerex-asian-vehicle-antifreeze-coolant


What's the difference between the red and blue Zerex Asian formulas?

My only concern with the Dex-Cool formula is it's possible effect on the rubber material on the head gasket. I have no idea if the Dex-Cool caused the slight amount of rubber debris I saw in the drained out coolant.

I would think all coolants would be compatible with rubber parts since most cooling systems have rubber parts to them. As far as corrosion protecting, I've had zero issues with the Dex-Cool as the inside of this cooling system is like brand new after 16 years.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
What about using Zerex Asian vehicle coolant?
http://www.valvoline.com/our-products/antifreeze-products/zerex-asian-vehicle-antifreeze-coolant


What's the difference between the red and blue Zerex Asian formulas?...

Just the tint color designed to match an OEM. Red/pink for Toyota, blue for Honda. Pep Boys OEM Brand PHOAT doing the same thing only in a full strength AF and 4 tints.

Tough to say if Dex compatible with Suzuki, 2eha in Dex is a known plasticizer and can affect non compatible gasket and seal materials .

Can't see why an Asian PHOAT wouldn't work fine.
 
^^^ Thanks Sayjac. I just did a live chat with Zerex and they said the same thing about the red and blue ... it's just a tint color, and both are the same exact formulation. I also asked them about compatibility with rubber parts. Here's a snap-shot of the live chat window.

 
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Tough to say if Dex compatible with Suzuki, 2eha in Dex is a known plasticizer and can affect non compatible gasket and seal materials .

Can't see why an Asian PHOAT wouldn't work fine.


I also emailed Prestone Tech Dept with a JPG of the head gasket shown above and explained what I saw on this coolant drain to see what they come back with. Probably won't hear back from them until Monday or Tuesday.

I just can't imagine anyone making an antifreeze that isn't compatible with rubber materials since most modern cooling systems use some kind of rubber materials (O-rings, seals, etc).

I'm still wondering if the "Water Wetter" might have been a factor. I have no idea how compatible water wetter is with different materials. I did not add water wetter with the Pestone Dex-Cool I just installed yesterday.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
...I just can't imagine anyone making an antifreeze that isn't compatible with rubber materials since most modern cooling systems use some kind of rubber materials (O-rings, seals, etc).

I suggest you read the following SAE article, it's not long. Especially the part about Dex AF using 2eha, "Extra Sealing Protection". The Asian automakers still avoid Dex AF because of 2eha.

http://articles.sae.org/11284/

Not trying to convince you, your bike your call. Dex 'might' be fine for the Suzuki. But for me, I likely go with an Asian PHOAT. Or alternatively Peak Global Lifetime. But most likely the Asian AF.
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
What about using Zerex Asian vehicle coolant?
http://www.valvoline.com/our-products/antifreeze-products/zerex-asian-vehicle-antifreeze-coolant


What's the difference between the red and blue Zerex Asian formulas?

My only concern with the Dex-Cool formula is it's possible effect on the rubber material on the head gasket. I have no idea if the Dex-Cool caused the slight amount of rubber debris I saw in the drained out coolant.

I would think all coolants would be compatible with rubber parts since most cooling systems have rubber parts to them. As far as corrosion protecting, I've had zero issues with the Dex-Cool as the inside of this cooling system is like brand new after 16 years.


I understand your concern, it is better to be safe than sorry. From my reading and research, the first Dex-cool versions were bad with plastic and rubber seals and gaskets. With it having the 2-EHA, it would affect the gaskets, rubber seals, and plastic. Supposedly, the new versions don't do this. Read an article about the earlier Dex-cool coolant, and an gentleman involved with the formulation said that it has under gone refinement since it was first introduced. I think also GM learned from it and changed the gaskets and rubber seals for the later vehicles to not be affected by 2-EHA. Still, I think it is better safe than sorry.

Did you read the product description for the Valvoline Asian coolant? I like that it has this in the data sheet, "It contains a high quality defoamer and will not harm gaskets, hoses, plastics or original vehicle paint."
 
Originally Posted By: njohnson
I understand your concern, it is better to be safe than sorry. From my reading and research, the first Dex-cool versions were bad with plastic and rubber seals and gaskets. With it having the 2-EHA, it would affect the gaskets, rubber seals, and plastic. Supposedly, the new versions don't do this. Read an article about the earlier Dex-cool coolant, and an gentleman involved with the formulation said that it has under gone refinement since it was first introduced. I think also GM learned from it and changed the gaskets and rubber seals for the later vehicles to not be affected by 2-EHA. Still, I think it is better safe than sorry.

Did you read the product description for the Valvoline Asian coolant? I like that it has this in the data sheet, "It contains a high quality defoamer and will not harm gaskets, hoses, plastics or original vehicle paint."


Good info here ... especially about the older Dex-Cool formulation. It just so happens that the last coolant change I did (the coolant I just drained yesterday) was put in about 10 years ago (2006), so apparently it would have been the older formulation. This could explain why I say the small amount of rubber debris in the drained coolant. Like I said, it wasn't a huge amount of debris, but it was something I noticed going on. I doubt the head gasket is ready to fail, but I would rather see zero black rubbery material debris upon inspection of drained coolant.

If the new Dex-Cool is reformulated then maybe the new mix I just installed might be fine (?).

I might just go with the Asian formula Zerex to play it safe. Not going to kill me to throw some more money at it to get the right stuff if needed. I'll probably wait and see what the Preston Tech guy says. If he comes back and says their Dex-Cool is now more material compatible I might just leave in the new fill.
 
IMO, based on my reading I believe it's the gaskets, seals, and orings, etc that have improved, ie., become more compatible and/or eliminated the use of silicone type materials in those components as the SAE article suggests. Thus why Ford has now gone to Dex based AF in their newer vehicles. But I wouldn't use Dex in their vehicles that spec G-05 for instance, nor does Ford recommend it. Chrysler otoh, went to an OAT AF from G05 but it doesn't contain 2eha like Dex.

So I don't think Dex has changed much, still contains 2eha, but the materials used in cooling systems specing it now are compatible.
 
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
...I just can't imagine anyone making an antifreeze that isn't compatible with rubber materials since most modern cooling systems use some kind of rubber materials (O-rings, seals, etc).

I suggest you read the following SAE article, it's not long. Especially the part about Dex AF using 2eha, "Extra Sealing Protection". The Asian automakers still avoid Dex AF because of 2eha.

http://articles.sae.org/11284/

Not trying to convince you, your bike your call. Dex 'might' be fine for the Suzuki. But for me, I likely go with an Asian PHOAT. Or alternatively Peak Global Lifetime. But most likely the Asian AF.


Good article - thanks. Wish I would have know about that 10 years ago. I will find out from Prestone if their newest Dex-Cool formulation still has 2-ethylhexanoate (2-EHA) in it.
 
Originally Posted By: Sayjac
IMO, based on my reading I believe it's the gaskets, seals, and orings, etc that have improved, ie., become more compatible and/or eliminated the use of silicone type materials in those components as the SAE article suggests. Thus why Ford has now gone to Dex based AF in their newer vehicles. But I wouldn't use Dex in their vehicles that spec G-05 for instance, nor does Ford recommend it. Chrysler otoh, went to an OAT AF from G05 but it doesn't contain 2eha like Dex.

So I don't think Dex has changed much, still contains 2eha, but the materials used in cooling systems specing it now are compatible.


I know the current Prestone Dex-Cool does meet the current Ford spec for antifreeze (WSS-M97B44-D). I still have the Prestone jug I used from 10 years ago on this motorcycle, and it says on the back label: "Contains no phosphates, nitrites, silicates or amines."

The new jug of Prestone only says: "Silicate and phosphate free."

So is the Zerex Asian formula definitely 2-EHA free?
 
I just did another live chat with Zerex/Valvoline. Asked of the Asian formula was 2-EHA free. They said is was free of 2-EHA. See snap-shot below.

Guess at this point I'll wait to hear from Prestone and go from there. If the current Prestone Dex-Cool formula contains 2-EHA then I'll go get some Zerex Asian formula and do a good flush of the Prestone and change the coolant again. If Prestone has removed the 2-EHA then I'll leave the new Dex-Cool fill in. Thanks for all the inputs guys.

 
BTW - the 10 year old jug of Prestone Dex-Cool also listed the Ford WSS-M97B44-D antifreeze spec. So Ford hasn't changed the spec for at least 10 years it seems. Might mean the Prestone Dex-Cool formulation hasn't changed in the last 10 years either (?).
 
So I called the local AutoZone here and they said they carry the Pentosin brand "Pentofrost A4" antifreeze for Asian vehicles. Specified for Toyota (2005+), Lexus (2005+) and Scion (2005+).
http://www.pentosin.net/f_antifreeze.asp


I'm assuming this stuff is also 2-EHA free? Spec sheet doesn't get that detailed.
http://www.pentosin.net/specsheets/Pentofrost_A4.pdf

Looks like the "Pentofrost A3" is the same basic formula, but in blue. But it does list a Suzuki coolant spec on its data sheet, probably just because of the tint color since they seem to be the same formula except for color, like what Zerex does with their red or blue Asian formula.
http://www.pentosin.net/specsheets/Pentofrost_A3.pdf
 
FWIW, I used Dexcool for the first coolant change in my 'Busa. Than afterword I used Prestone AMAM, and now the current version of AMAM, which are all OAT coolants with 2eha. The cooling system is spotless, with no signs of corrosion, ever.

After the first run of Dexcool, I tore the engine down and rebuilt it as a big-bore stroker motor. When it was apart, there were no signs of corrosion anywhere. With the big-bore engine, I've been using the Prestone AMAM, and now the current Prestone formula. In the 7 years since the rebuild, I've changed the coolant regularly, and when I do I check as much of the coolant passages as I can with a bore scope. Everything is spotless, and no leaks ever. I am running a larger custom radiator, but it's all-aluminum construction like the OEM.

Anti-freeze can become acidic over time, and start to corrode parts. Maybe that might account for the pieces you found. From your description it doesn't sound like anything major, so I'd just not let the coolant go so long before changing it in the future.
 
02SE - thanks for your input and great info because you've actually seen your Busa engine apart.

I didn't see any signs of corrosion in my cooling system either ... even though I let this coolant run go way too long (10 years, but only 2000 miles). I was certain there was going to be some sign of corrosion or scale in the radiator but it was spotless ... see attached photo. Shows how well the Dex-Cool protects from corrosion.



Only thing I saw was some of the tiny bits of black rubber and also what looked like some tiny aluminum shavings. Hard to say where the aluminum shavings came from - most likely the water pump (?). I don't think the aluminum shavings were anything left over from manufacturing because I've changed and flushed the system twice before this change. I'm also wondering if the metal debris might have been abrading on the edges of the rubber sealing material on the head gasket?

Also, I was running "Water Wetter" so I don't know how that reacts with rubber or silicone materials. Water Wetter also has some kind of anti-corrosion additive. Did you ever run Water Wetter?

So did you see any signs at all of degradation on the rubber sealing layer on the head gasket? Also, if you recall, is the material around the circumference of the bores on the head gasket the same as the other rubbery material?

I'm just going to wait and see what Preston says, and if I feel leery about the Dex-Cool and the rubber material on the head gasket I'll just flush the Dex-Cool and go with the Zerex Asian formula in blue ... to match the Busa.
grin.gif
 
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
BTW - the 10 year old jug of Prestone Dex-Cool also listed the Ford WSS-M97B44-D antifreeze spec. So Ford hasn't changed the spec for at least 10 years it seems. Might mean the Prestone Dex-Cool formulation hasn't changed in the last 10 years either (?).

Actually Ford changed to a 2eha Dex based AF in many of their vehicles between 2011-2012. Those vehicles were previously using G-05 and Ford has not back spec'd any of those vehicles to their new DexCool Orange. Surprising though that your jug mentions the WSS-M97B44-D spec if it's 10 years old.

As for Prestone DexCool or any "DexCool" now, very certain it still contains 2eha. Just the way DexCool is, 2eha is a primary inhibitor it uses. The newer Prestone Universal also contains 2eha because I have previously emailed them and got that answer to confirm. The latter though would appear to use it in a lower concentration/percent.

Now if you asked whether it will/could affect gaskets, orings etc., having read this board for some time, their (prestone) interpretation may be different than some others including the vehicle manufacturer. I remember reading a question asking about their then labeled universal All Makes/Models dexclone being appropriate for FoMoCo vehicles specing G-05. Prestone said yes and pointed to Ford's questionable cooling system design if there was any issues. Ford says use G-05, if my vehicle because of 2eha, that's what I'd use.

Anyway, your call. If you're happy with Dex use Dex. Linked below is Ford Motorcraft AF Usage chart. You can note that Ford has not back spec'd it's G-05 vehicles to it's newer 2eha DexCool orange AF. You can draw your own conclusions for the reason(s).

http://www.motorcraft.com/servlet/BlobSe...&blobkey=id
 
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