Electrical help - 3 light circuit with pilot light

[69GTX]

Can any of you electrical guys give me a hand on this one? I've fiddled away the past 3 hours trying to replace this "simple" one pole/combination light switch for my basement after the toggle fell apart. Picked a new one up today from Home Depot - Leviton brand is the same as before. The old Leviton was probably 55 years old. There are 3 separate basement lights on this circuit (I assume in parallel) and currently only one of those 3 works. It's better than I had this morning with 0 for 3.

Leviton switch wiring - 2nd diagram down

Leviton "tech" manual

I started out wiring the 3 black/3 white leads exactly as they came off the old switch. That didn't work to my surprise. On disassembly 3 leads were stuffed on the input neutral silver screw to the 0.25w pilot "indicating" light. In modern circuits those leads would probably be soldered/joined back in the box with a single lead going to the switch. Trying to get contact with 3 leads on a single screw is difficult, though I think I did that ok...the pilot does work.

The black "hot" 120v lead is where it should be at the input to the switch (black screw). What's confusing is that the wiring diagram suggests that a black wire is on either side of the switch. And that's NOT how it came apart. A white wire was on the output/load side of the old switch (brass screw). And it didn't work when I first wired in the new one. So per the diagram I moved the 2nd black wire off the neutral/silver screw....to the brass screw. And now there's 3 white wires on the silver/neutral screw. The green "ground" screw has a black wire attached...though when first taking it apart it had a white wire. No green wires - just 3 black and 3 white - and no bare copper ground attached to the original switch (could be a white or black wire too).

OK. So what do I do to troubleshoot this further? I have power to 1 of 3 lights. The red pilot line is on as it's supposed to be. I took some voltage, amp, and ohm readings across the various wires/screws and nothing seemed out of place. I took the last white wire off the silver screw to get better contact on the other two, and then I lost the only light I had. That made no sense. Shouldn't I be able to leave only one white wire attached and have that light work? And then do that for the other 2 wires for the other 2 lights?

40 years ago I could work my way through a transistorized control circuit down to the component level (NPN, PNP, etc.) computing 3 phase AC volts, amps, and ohms across/through any component. And today I can't even fumble my way through a 120 Vac light circuit!!....sheesh. Spent the last hour googling various light circuits and videos for anything I missed.

 

[eljefino]

1) kill your breaker, something's goofy here.

2) Is the pilot light supposed to be on when the light's off? If so, it's meant to be wired in series with a traditional incandescent bulb. Since the pilot light has much smaller current demands, it emits light while the big bulb stays dark. But if the big bulb goes missing, the pilot goes out.

3) In the older days, power was run to the light box, or in your case, the master light box, then a tangent pair of wires goes off to the switch. There may very well be no ground. They're "supposed" to mark the white wire black, eg wrapping with black tape, as the switch is supposed to be on the hot side of the circuit.

4) Probing household wiring with a digital volt-ohm meter isn't a great idea, as its internal impedance is so high it gives false positives/ negatives. You can have a bad splice that arced over but still pass .00001 Amps at 120V that your meter will detect, for example.

5) it seems strange that all your lights seem to come back to this switch. I'd expect them to be daisy- chained. Do you have an open ceiling in your basement so you can see what's going on? Anytime you find something odd electrically you have to wonder if an unqualified handyman messed with it.

6) what if you stick in a 49 cent cheapie switch without pilot light? Get that working first/ next.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
1) kill your breaker, something's goofy here.

2) Is the pilot light supposed to be on when the light's off? If so, it's meant to be wired in series with a traditional incandescent bulb. Since the pilot light has much smaller current demands, it emits light while the big bulb stays dark. But if the big bulb goes missing, the pilot goes out.

3) In the older days, power was run to the light box, or in your case, the master light box, then a tangent pair of wires goes off to the switch. There may very well be no ground. They're "supposed" to mark the white wire black, eg wrapping with black tape, as the switch is supposed to be on the hot side of the circuit.

4) Probing household wiring with a digital volt-ohm meter isn't a great idea, as its internal impedance is so high it gives false positives/ negatives. You can have a bad splice that arced over but still pass .00001 Amps at 120V that your meter will detect, for example.

5) it seems strange that all your lights seem to come back to this switch. I'd expect them to be daisy- chained. Do you have an open ceiling in your basement so you can see what's going on? Anytime you find something odd electrically you have to wonder if an unqualified handyman messed with it.

6) what if you stick in a 49 cent cheapie switch without pilot light? Get that working first/ next.



Thanks for the reply Eljefino. I'll see if I can answer those questions.

The cheapie switch w/o pilot light probably wouldn't fix anything as I still comes back to identifying the leads off those 3 lights and ensuring they are in the power circuit (ie 2 lights not working). They were all fine this morning before the switch toggle just stopped working. We noticed something odd the day before but it didn't click until they just refused to come on. So it doesn't make sense to me that the circuit is messed up now with only a switch change. The pilot light is working as required and that's the "hard" part of this circuit (ie it's ON when the lights are left on in the basement...as a reminder to turn them off).

My lights in the basement are all exposed just under the main floor joists/beams. It's mostly older style flexible conduit. I can follow it from one ceramic light fixture to the next. The 3rd light (the working one) is at the top of the stairs and has the cable runs hidden in the ceiling. I think that wiring is part of original construction as it is a working basement with burner/oil tank/appliances. But, I think some of the lighting/outlets were added by the 1st/2nd owner when they semi-refinished the basement. There are 3 different types of cables for the lights....older style sheathed, smooth black "rubber," and smooth white. Must have been done at different times.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
I started out wiring the 3 black/3 white leads exactly as they came off the old switch. That didn't work to my surprise. On disassembly 3 leads were stuffed on the input neutral silver screw to the 0.25w pilot "indicating" light. In modern circuits those leads would probably be soldered/joined back in the box with a single lead going to the switch. Trying to get contact with 3 leads on a single screw is difficult, though I think I did that ok...the pilot does work.

1. You definitely don't want the load going through the pilot. Bad juju. The pilot (if wired externally) should come off the switched hot, then to neutral.

2. Trying to secure 3 12ga? wires to a single screw is nuts. Join them together with a pigtail secured with a wire nut and run a single hot to the switched hot side of the switch.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: sleddriver
1. You definitely don't want the load going through the pilot. Bad juju. The pilot (if wired externally) should come off the switched hot, then to neutral.

2. Trying to secure 3 12ga? wires to a single screw is nuts. Join them together with a pigtail secured with a wire nut and run a single hot to the switched hot side of the switch.




Looks like I need to bring in an electrician. Seems insane for just a switch though. The old switch had a lot of room on that screw and the 3 wires formed nearly perfect eyelets. Not quite sure I understand the "switched hot side of the switch." Wouldn't that be the "brass" screw in the first drawing above? The first two overhead lights in the basement are wired together, and then connected to the one at the top of the stairs (3 light parallel circuit). No other lights in the house are affected by this switch or the breaker for this circuit. I checked all lights and only the light over the sink and kitchen ceiling light are on this circuit....so at most 5 lights - 500 watts max.

I'm still confused about finding one white wire on the input to the pilot...and one black on the output of the pilot....and it worked for the old switch. I have some other "little" projects I can probably ask an electrician about....such as why some of my light fixtures haven't worked since we moved in. And a couple of double power outlets only seem to work on one side...as if by design.

 

[sleddriver]

I'd start by removing the switch temporarily, then wire neutral supply to one white load and do the same for the hot wires, then verify that light comes on. Then add another one, then finally last.

I can see why someone would use white for a switched black, but that's confusing and bad practice. All switched hots need to be black as well. Hot also needs to be interrupted by the switch, not neutral. I've seen this before!

I'd draw a picture, but fixing to cook.

Kudos for catching that old switch! I had one about 30yrs go in the garage. Wiring got hot, then sparks began flying out of the switch. When I cut the power to replace it, the cheap-piece-of-contractor-junk just fell apart in my hands!

This is how electrical fires get started in walls. Bad juju.....

 

[69GTX]

Thanks Sleddriver. Before my last post I did remove all the white neutrals and tried them one at a time. Only one of the 3 gave me a light (the one at the top of the stairs). The 2 in the basement don't come on at all. That's why I don't think a non-pilot light switch would make any difference right now. I'll start from scratch tomorrow with the original wiring set up and again try one neutral/white at a time.

This switch worked intermittently yesterday but it was late at night and I thought I was seeing things when I had no lights, and a 2nd toggle I did. I replaced my neighbor's kitchen light switch last month and that literally disintegrated right to the base of the shaft. My toggle switch looked fine from the outside, but it lost it's "snap" action and just flopped around.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
... Not quite sure I understand the "switched hot side of the switch." Wouldn't that be the "brass" screw in the first drawing above?



Yes. The switched hot side = the brass screw. On the rt. side is BLACK HOT. On the left side is BLACK (SWITCHED HOT) LOAD.

 

[69GTX]

Thanks for clearing up "switched hot" for me. Switched hot was a "white" wire when I took the old switch out. It didn't work set up like that with the new switch....so I took the other nearby black and moved it from neutral/silver screw to the brass/switched hot screw.

OK. If I get your previous post right, I should remove the switch and just check the black hot input lead and touch it to the various other leads to see if all 3 lights will come on one at a time...and identify what those 3 neutral leads are....even if they aren't all white wires. Not sure what happens with the 3rd lead/ground wire being disconnected/out of the circuit since the switch is removed.

 

[69GTX]

Talked to a Leviton rep on the switch since some features had changed on it (light type, terminal positions, break-away-fin, etc.). But none of those play a role. They felt the 3 light load wires (white?) should be on the brass/hot switched terminal....not the silver screw. And that's way different on how the old switch was orig wired. I guess it really comes down to how the wires are ganged together in another junction box.

Trying to get my old 1982 Carrier A/C 8K BTU wall through unit replaced at the same time....so talked with an on-line Friedrich tech to see if their "close in dimension" 10K Chill unit would fit in my old (and slightly larger) Carrier sleeve, and still work per warranty. I think it could work as I can get it to fit, and cut out whatever is needed on the old casing to ensure all vents can work. Don't think they would warranty it though unless I remove the entire Carrier sleeve. That gives me about an inch on top and one side to fill back in on the house framing/insulation for that 7"-8" deep cut. Would rather keep the existing set up for convenience. I'm also tempted to buy a cheapo store unit for $150-$200 and just shove it in the hole for summer.

Getting the old Carrier chassis out yesterday was a chore at first. My back can't handle a 75-90 lb lift of that bulk any more (blew it out 6 weeks ago on a similar lift of bulky box of books (50 lb). Got smarter and slid the unit onto a chair. Then tipped the chair onto my cheapo luggage dolly. Unit slid off like grease lighting. Then wheeled it to the front door. Built a set of 2" temp steps with two by fours/sixes to go down the front steps. Worked great. Took all of 10 min. and saved my back. That luggage dolly worked great 2 weeks ago when moving 6 solidified 80 lb bags of concrete off by back porch. Next step is getting that AC unit into my trunk to go to the recycling center. Hmmm.

 

[JTK]

This is a strange one indeed. If I'm understanding this correctly, it sounds like all three basement lights are run to the box that contains the switch? Why these weren't daisy-chained is beyond me, but I've been through some oddities like this over the years for sure.

If all the wiring is accessible, I'd re-do it. switch leg (main power) up into the box that contains the switch, then out to the first fixture, from first to second and so on. If you can't do this and you've got room in the box that contains the switch, run a single pigtail wire to your switch terminals from your black and white bundles like already suggested above.

Why the need for the indicator lighted switch? I'd scrap that to save space in the box.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: JTK
...If all the wiring is accessible, I'd re-do it. switch leg (main power) up into the box that contains the switch, then out to the first fixture, from first to second and so on. If you can't do this and you've got room in the box that contains the switch, run a single pigtail wire to your switch terminals from your black and white bundles like already suggested above.

Why the need for the indicator lighted switch? I'd scrap that to save space in the box.


The space behind the switch is very small - it's no more than a 1.75 inch wide box. Very tight. I sort of like the pilot light feature that tells me 3 lights were left on in the basement. The bottom line is that I only know for sure what 2 of the 6 wires are doing. One of them is the black hot feed and the other is the white neutral that returns power from the light at the top of the stairs. Some or all of the other 4 wires are undoubtedly hooked up incorrectly. Changing to a non-pilot switch doesn't solve that. So I still couldn't hook up that correctly if I wanted to. If I could do that, I suspect I could get the pilot light switch to work 100% as well. Whatever mistake(s) I am currently making, applies to both types of switches as 3 lights are running through this switch. I'm less concerned about the pilot working, and 2 lights that aren't. The previous wiring to the old switch had been working fine and untouched for 55 years...until the toggle broke.

I'd be fine with 3 working lights and no pilot. Can't get there right now with what I currently know. And redoing the wiring means a minimum of tearing a wall apart as this is just flexible sheathed cable run through a drilled floor board and up the wall. No metal conduit for an easier pull. Fwiw, I opened up the 2 accessible light fixtures in the basement and they wired as expected. So all the load leads are meeting up in this tiny light switch/junction box.

 

[69GTX]

Fixed.

After looking inside all 3 lights, and the breaker box, the black power and white neutral color scheme was pretty well followed. The only deviation is on the light at the top of the stairs which shows two white leads to the socket....but I suspect the actual leads from the basement inside there are black and white. Looking inside the light switch junction box, 4 leads (2 w, 2 b) come out of the top, and 2 leads ( w, b) come off the bottom together. Based on the routing of the leads from the breaker panel it finally occurred to me it was 2 separate circuits meeting up at the switch box. So where was the 2nd hot switched lead that wasn't being used? Stupidly, it was on the green ground screw. Why did I do that? "Because" the old switch had all 4 of its terminals/screws being occupied. So I followed suit and used the same wires in the same place....and it didn't work. No doubt, that old switch wasn't built like the new one. The 2 "missing" lights on the downstairs circuit finally got their power. The pilot light works. And I think as long as one return white/neutral lead from either of the 2 light circuits is connected to neutral, the pilot would work. The third white lead on that neutral/silver screw must head back to the breaker box neutral bus. Stupidly, I had initially figured 3 lights, 3 white leads for them. Not so with only 2 circuits or strings.

Stared at it long enough, and after tracing things out the 2 systems finally made sense of it all. First time I tried replacing a switch with multiple loads. In the past you just reconnected the same leads to the same point on the switch. That always worked before. And then having an old style switch with 4 positions occupied sent me off on a tangent. Perfect storm of confusion for a simple double lighting circuit. It wouldn't surprise me if that top stairway light is wired directly to the breaker box hot. Then it comes back to the switch box. That seems to be how the wires are routed from the basement. Until I looked in the box, I "assumed" that the lead running up the stairs into the lower wall was the breaker power. Nope, that was the kitchen outlet circuit power cable. Another initial point of confusion. The Leviton Tech rep was right when he said I needed the load side of the switch going to each light....in this case, it was to each of the two light circuits.

The simple answer from the start was if the 2 lower basement lights weren't working, they didn't have hot switched power. A search for a 2nd lead to attach to that brass screw should have been the next question. And that black "hot switched" lead was the one coming up from underneath the box (ie from the basement). It should go faster next time....lol.

 

[SHOZ]

It's against code to put more than one wire under a screw. You should use a pigtail and a wire nut.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
It's against code to put more than one wire under a screw. You should use a pigtail and a wire nut.


That's my last step. It's going to have to hold 4 wires.

 

[sleddriver]

Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Fixed.

 

[JTK]

Glad you fixed it! My brain hurts from trying to reason with what you've got going on there.

 

[69GTX]

Originally Posted By: JTK
Glad you fixed it! My brain hurts from trying to reason with what you've got going on there.


Me too. With that old switch it had the 2 hot load leads wired to different terminals...and it worked.

Everything I found today showed it to be 3 lights properly wired in parallel...with a pilot light. The extra neutral/white lead was added for the pilot light. Seems to be wired appropriately.

Now I can finally concentrate on the 8K/10K air conditioner project and finishing up the rescreening of my porch.

 

[SHOZ]

Back in the day houses were wired to switch the neutrals and not the 120v. Makes for interesting troubleshooting. My house is a 1960 Sears Homeline and is like this.