move over esters...time for alkylated napthenes

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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


Would there be an advantage to using both? I was under the impression that's what Tri-syn was: PAO/Esters/AN's
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Yes.

You bring up a good point so let me clarify.

In many Full Synthetics, what they do is "reduce" the amount of esters needed by substituting some of the ester for AN's. I wasn't entirely clear before.

The original Mobil Tri-Synthetic was a mixture of three types of base oils, PAO, TMP ester, and AN.

After the all "PAO" fiasco in the early '70's that shrunk seals and caused leaks, Mobil had to include an ester component to help swell seals.

Please note in the original '05 White Paper that I said:
Quote:

Today, the AN’s are being used as partial replacements for esters in fully formulated synthetic and mineral based PCMO and diesel motor oils.
 
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So, the inferior adipate ester in the Mobil is the Tri alcohol (TMP) ESTER, not the Adipate Diester...

They should compare with Diester like MOTUL 300V and with POE on Redline.
 
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Originally Posted By: Pontual
So, the inferior adipate ester in the Mobil is the Tri alcohol (TMP) ESTER, not the Adipate Diester...

They should compare with Diester like MOTUL 300V and with POE on Redline.


The adipate ester is not inferior and has some good characteristics:

Quote:
...Adipates are the most widely used diesters due to their low relative cost and good balance of properties. They generally range from about 2.3 to 5.3 cSt at 100°C and exhibit pour points below -60°C. The viscosity indices of adipates usually run from about 130 to 150 and their oxidative stability, like most of the diesters, are comparable to PAOs. The primary difference between adipate diesters and PAOs is the presence of two ester linkages and the associated polarity benefits outlined previously. The most common use of adipate diesters is in combination with PAOs in numerous applications such as screw compressor oils, gear and transmission oils, automotive crankcase oils, and hydraulic fluids. Adipates are also used as the sole basestock where biodegradability is desired or high temperature cleanliness is critical such as in textile lubricants and oven chain oils...


Quote:
...Polyol esters can extend the high temperature operating range of a lubricant by as much as 50 - 100°C due to their superior stability and low volatility. They are also renowned for their film strength and increased lubricity which is useful in reducing energy consumption in many applications. The only downside of polyol esters compared to diesters is their higher price tag, generally 20 - 70+% higher on a wholesale basis.

The major application for polyol esters is jet engine lubricants where they have been used exclusively for more than 40 years. In this application, the oil is expected to flow at -65°C, pump readily at -40°C, and withstand sump temperature over 200°C with drain intervals measured in years. Only polyol esters have been found to satisfy this demanding application and incorporating even small amounts of diesters or PAOs will cause the lubricant to fail vital specifications.Polyol esters are also the ester of choice for blending with PAOs in passenger car motor oils. This change from lower cost diesters to polyols was driven primarily by the need for reduced fuel consumption and lower volatility in modern specifications. They are sometimes used in 2-cycle oils as well for the same reasons. In industrial markets polyol esters are used extensively in synthetic refrigeration lubricants due to their miscibility with non-chlorine refrigerants. They are also widely used in very high temperature operations such as industrial oven chains, tenter frames, stationary turbine engines, high temperature grease, fire resistant transformer coolants, fire resistant hydraulic fluids, and textile lubricants.

In general, polyol esters represent the highest performance level available for high temperature applications at a reasonable price. Although they cost more than many other types of synthetics, the benefits often combine to make this chemistry the most cost effective in severe environment applications. The primary benefits include extended life, higher temperature operation, reduced maintenance and downtime, lower energy consumption, reduced smoke and disposal, and biodegradability...


Overview of Esters by Tom

So each of the ester types have their application niches.

Mobil, in my view, should have compared their AN to the polyols such as the Trimethylolpropanes (TMPs) or the Pentaerythritols esters.
 
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When I worked I compared two viscosity grades of ANs to two same grade POEs in high temperature tests ranging from 425°F to 540°F. I monitored acid increase, viscosity increase, sludge formation, and high temperature deposits. The POEs handily beat the ANs at these extreme temperatures. At more reasonable temperatures such as automotive applications, ANs are plenty stable enough.

ANs offer a hydrolytic stability advantage over POEs but have a lower VI and higher volatility. When I retired they were being offered at wholesale at prices higher than POEs but I have no idea of the price comparison today.

ANs fit well in motor oils (I use Mobil 1) but they will not work in jet engines, and are not well suited for high temperature industrial applications where POE dominate.

Tom NJ
 
AN's are offered at slightly lower prices/lb. today than TMP esters.

Many customers don't like a cloudy finished oil.

My experience is that in certain formulations AN's will cloud the mix unless one increases the dispersant levels, or increases the ester level, and reduce the AN content. It's a crazy balancing act.
 
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
When I worked I compared two viscosity grades of ANs to two same grade POEs in high temperature tests ranging from 425°F to 540°F. I monitored acid increase, viscosity increase, sludge formation, and high temperature deposits. The POEs handily beat the ANs at these extreme temperatures. At more reasonable temperatures such as automotive applications, ANs are plenty stable enough.

ANs offer a hydrolytic stability advantage over POEs but have a lower VI and higher volatility. When I retired they were being offered at wholesale at prices higher than POEs but I have no idea of the price comparison today.

ANs fit well in motor oils (I use Mobil 1) but they will not work in jet engines, and are not well suited for high temperature industrial applications where POE dominate.

Tom NJ


Nice. To know that when I shut the engine down, the piston rings are at 450 to 490F, specially in short highway hopps. A little TechPe POE that I add, helps to keep the oxidation from heat soaking down. My oils get hundreds of short trips more to start to darken. Thanks to you Tom & Mola.
 
Guys, it's alkylated naphthalene, not alkylated naphthene. Naphthalene -- an aromatic unsaturated molecule with a benzene ring -- and naphthene -- a saturated hydrocarbon -- are entirely different things.
 
In that preso the AN 5 Cst has a VI of mere 74 and a Noak of 12.4 ...

The AN of 12Cst has a VI of 105 ... both are under the least mineral group base.

What ?
 
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They aren't meant as the exclusive base stock but for blending. They decrease the wear substantially among many other benefits when blended with the primary base stocks. It's like why you don't want an ester as your primary base stock.
 
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
They aren't meant as the exclusive base stock but for blending. They decrease the wear substantially among many other benefits when blended with the primary base stocks. It's like why you don't want an ester as your primary base stock.


Many people tend to think engine oils are made of only one base oil type (API Group) or viscosity of base oil.

No engine oil is made of any one base oil type, no matter what some of the oil companies attempt to imply in their advertising hype.

We seem to have to continually educate people on this subject and your input is greatly appreciated.
 
an EXCELLENT informative post + many thanks to the pros like Mola + Tom who take the time to educate us. the more you read about oil blending seems to reinforce the complicated puzzle of todays oils + that mixing different oils, especially different brands will prolly end up with a lesser lubricant unless you are one of the very few that REALLY know lubrication!! thanks again i enjoy learning about todays complex lubricants
 
Can someone confirm Mobil 1 uses Group III as base stock for some of their synthetic oil as well ?
 
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
When I worked I compared two viscosity grades of ANs to two same grade POEs in high temperature tests ranging from 425°F to 540°F. I monitored acid increase, viscosity increase, sludge formation, and high temperature deposits. The POEs handily beat the ANs at these extreme temperatures. At more reasonable temperatures such as automotive applications, ANs are plenty stable enough.

ANs offer a hydrolytic stability advantage over POEs but have a lower VI and higher volatility. When I retired they were being offered at wholesale at prices higher than POEs but I have no idea of the price comparison today.

ANs fit well in motor oils (I use Mobil 1) but they will not work in jet engines, and are not well suited for high temperature industrial applications where POE dominate.

Tom NJ


Nice. To know that when I shut the engine down, the piston rings are at 450 to 490F, specially in short highway hopps. A little TechPe POE that I add, helps to keep the oxidation from heat soaking down. My oils get hundreds of short trips more to start to darken. Thanks to you Tom & Mola.


Where do you get this (TechPe POE)?
Thanks.
 
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