Keep America's Nuclear Power Stations Running

[Al]

Originally Posted By: crazyoildude
Build more ?? Maybe in your State but not near mine..

NJ doesn't produe anything except Debt.
Did you know that coal fired plants emit lots more radiation (and more bad stuff) than Nukes?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
That is not the case in Illinois. They have to sell into a market of around $0.04 a kWh wholesale.


What are the (non-subsidized) costs for the other generators? As we discussed, your generating buy/sell market operates quite differently from ours, so it would be nice to know the actual costs (not market rates) in the c/KWh format to properly compare them. The initial cost, low output and 30% efficiency are big strikes against wind and solar, even though they are getting cheaper to install.
There is no direct subsidy but rather income tax credits. My coop has been buying power at $0.037 per kWh for the last three years. Natural gas is the cheap power that sets the low rates. That does not get any direct subsidy either.


Yes, as we already discussed, NG is probably the cheapest generator at this point. Your co-op however sounds like it is buying power at a cost lower than it takes to generate it, what is the "regular" rate?

Also, it looks like your providers buy and sell REC's (Renewable Energy Credits):

https://www.ipa-energyrfp.com/download/P...02015-04-22.pdf

And a read-up on how that system works is here:
https://www.ipa-energyrfp.com/download/9...%209-4-2015.pdf

It is quite the interesting system and definitely qualifies as an incentive-driven system with credits issued in "blocks" with a bid price per REC per block.

 

[SatinSilver]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
What not-so-green turbine is your wind propped up with? What's providing base-load? It most certainly isn't the wind power. Hydro electric works, where viable, but there are plenty of locations where it isn't.


Plus all the birds including bald eagles that are killed by the blades. It doesn't seem like a big deal at first until there's so many of these things dotting the landscape. Solar panels work pretty well for providing safe electric.

 

[SHOZ]

Not many birds flying over the corn fields. They are adding onto a wind farm NW of me now.

 

[mr_boring]

I have no issues with nuklar. I live about 3-4 miles from one (as the crow flies). My other head that grew out of my 3rd nipple says it doesn't have any issues either.

 

[SHOZ]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
That is not the case in Illinois. They have to sell into a market of around $0.04 a kWh wholesale.


What are the (non-subsidized) costs for the other generators? As we discussed, your generating buy/sell market operates quite differently from ours, so it would be nice to know the actual costs (not market rates) in the c/KWh format to properly compare them. The initial cost, low output and 30% efficiency are big strikes against wind and solar, even though they are getting cheaper to install.
There is no direct subsidy but rather income tax credits. My coop has been buying power at $0.037 per kWh for the last three years. Natural gas is the cheap power that sets the low rates. That does not get any direct subsidy either.


Yes, as we already discussed, NG is probably the cheapest generator at this point. Your co-op however sounds like it is buying power at a cost lower than it takes to generate it, what is the "regular" rate?

Also, it looks like your providers buy and sell REC's (Renewable Energy Credits):

https://www.ipa-energyrfp.com/download/P...02015-04-22.pdf

And a read-up on how that system works is here:
https://www.ipa-energyrfp.com/download/9...%209-4-2015.pdf

It is quite the interesting system and definitely qualifies as an incentive-driven system with credits issued in "blocks" with a bid price per REC per block.
Ameren is not my power suppler. Mine is Eastern Illinois Power Coop. Ameren delivers the power but the coop buys it's power from http://www.ppi.coop/. Ameren does sell retail power and they also produce power but they are separate entities. Exelon owns the nuke plants and sells the power on the wholesale market.

Ameren and other providers do have to buy credits as they by law have to provide a certain percentage of renewable power and if they do not generate with renewables then they have to buy credits. Both Exelon and Ameren are also in the business of wind and solar.

You do understand what an income tax credit is right?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ

You do understand what an income tax credit is right?


Yes, I'm quite aware. You DO understand what and how the REC system is and operates right? And what that means in terms of the entire idea of these generators standing on their own? I mean if we are going to play the game of pretentious condescension this is going to get really fun really fast. I am many things, but stupid isn't one of them.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: SatinSilver

Plus all the birds including bald eagles that are killed by the blades. It doesn't seem like a big deal at first until there's so many of these things dotting the landscape. Solar panels work pretty well for providing safe electric.

Cats kill around 2.5 billion birds a year. windows. 3/4 billion, there are like six or seven otyher sources ahead of windmills by a huge margin. Wind mills kill 300K birds per year at most. You find varying numbers on a number of sites.

A skyscraper kills more birds per year than a windmill

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Al


A skyscraper kills more birds per year than a windmill


Definitely. But a skyscraper takes up a lot more space, too. I think some of the concern stems from the increasing number of wind turbines (and the subsequent increase in impact) being installed as the attempt to replace or at minimum supplement traditional generators continues.

It is a minor concern, but one I see voiced frequently.

 

[mk378]

The toll is about two birds per turbine-year, and that is for smaller ones with fast-moving blades that birds have trouble avoiding. The very large machines are minimal hazards because birds can see and dodge the blades.

If bird death by wind turbine were a frequent thing, there would be pictures and videos of it all over the place. I've never seen one.

 

[SHOZ]

http://www.livingstoncounty-il.org/wordp...n-and-exhibits/

It's the application evidence submitted for the latest wind farm west of me. Bird and bat info is included if you are interested.

 

[Shannow]

And Palo Verde produced 50% more power in 2014 than ALL of Ca's wind and solar....And was capable of doing it 24/7

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
http://www.livingstoncounty-il.org/wordp...n-and-exhibits/

It's the application evidence submitted for the latest wind farm west of me. Bird and bat info is included if you are interested.


Apparently Canadians accessing that site is a no-no? LOL!

Quote:

Your access to this site has been limited

Your access to this service has been temporarily limited. Please try again in a few minutes. (HTTP response code 503)

Reason: Access from your area has been temporarily limited for security reasons

Important note for site admins: If you are the administrator of this website note that your access has been limited because you broke one of the Wordfence firewall rules. The reason your access was limited is: "Access from your area has been temporarily limited for security reasons".

 

[Shannow]

OVERKILL, same for Aussies...

 

[bvance554]

Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
No thanks. We're doing quite well on wind energy and don't need all the issues associated with nuclear waste.


That is as hilarious as you are apparently uninformed. Or brainwashed.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: bvance554
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
No thanks. We're doing quite well on wind energy and don't need all the issues associated with nuclear waste.


That is as hilarious as you are apparently uninformed. Or brainwashed.


True, the wind farms can ONLY produce power into a grid that's already there, they can't make it happen.

In a wind powered utopia, you need to install 3-4 times the nameplate rating, just to get the "average" 24/7 met...then you need to install enough batteries to cover the wind not blowing periods, having charged them when you could...then every so many cycles replace them.

It's going to be extraordinarily expensive for these "free" energies to run your T.V.

 

[Shannow]

http://energyrealityproject.com/lets-run-the-numbers-nuclear-energy-vs-wind-and-solar/

Quote:
Four bottom lines up front:

It would cost over $29 Trillion to generate America’s baseload electric power with a 50 / 50 mix of wind and solar farms, on parcels of land totaling the area of Indiana. Or:
It would cost over $18 Trillion with Concentrated Solar Power (CSP) farms in the southwest deserts, on parcels of land totaling the area of West Virginia. Or:
We could do it for less than $3 Trillion with AP-1000 Light Water Reactors, on parcels totaling a few square miles. Or:
We could do it for $1 Trillion with liquid-fueled Molten Salt Reactors, on the same amount of land, but with no water cooling, no risk of meltdowns, and the ability to use our stockpiles of nuclear “waste” as a secondary fuel.

 

[Wolf359]

Yeah. I'm not sure exactly what category wind energy falls into. Normally you have baseload power plants which nuclear is great at. Baseload means they're firing all the time, peakers only fire when demand is needed.

Anyway, if you look at iso new england, about 44% of the power comes from natural gas, 38% nuclear and 12% is renewable. Coal and hydro is down to 3%.

Check out their morning report, it's always interesting.

http://www.iso-ne.com/markets-operations/system-forecast-status/morning-report

Anyway, one of the first lines in that report is capacity supply obligation. Big businesses have to pay the power company a fee to supply the power they might need whether they need it or not. They've got to have something to provide that power if the business needs it. Wind isn't very reliable for that so you need a mix of other sources for that.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Yeah. I'm not sure exactly what category wind energy falls into. Normally you have baseload power plants which nuclear is great at. Baseload means they're firing all the time, peakers only fire when demand is needed.


Australian Electricity market, they are in a weird position.

Our market is such that you bid in your price to generate electricity into the pool...the cheapest gets called up first, then the second, and so on. The price paid to all of the generators is the most expensive plant that's called upon to generate.

There was a day back in the '90s, where all of the coal fired generators bid $0, expecting to be paid the maximum price in the grid...enough of them did it that the price was $0, and the hydros bought it all for $0 and pumped water all day.

There's the ability to bid -ve to keep plant in if you need to.

However, looking at the stack, the wind farms bid -$1000/MWh (-$10/KWh), and get paid whatever the most expensive generator that is on is getting...but unlike the coalers, they generate what they can, and aren't expected to fullfill the "promise" of nameplete rating

 

[Jarlaxle]

Originally Posted By: mk378
Originally Posted By: hatt
The issues with waste are strictly political.

True, but they still have to be resolved before considering building any new plants. The present policy of letting a lifetime of spent fuel accumulate at each plant is not tenable.


They were solved forty years ago...until President Peanuthead un-solved them.