F1 oil ?

[bdcardinal]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
It would be beneficial for Castrol to go back, since we know that participating in F1 always makes products better. Bridgestone benefited tremendously from participation in F1, as well as Michelin. GY pulled out when they were in war with Bridgestone, and you can see their products deteriorating with time. I was reading article where Michelin still trickles down acquired know-how from F1 days to new products. Pirelli is now doing same. There is no doubt that Mobil1, Shell, Petronas are doing same. I bet all GTL came out from F1.


It would be nice to see a tire war again in F1. Michelin pretty much dominates sports car racing where they are not excluded due to entitlement sponsorship. Corvette Racing switched to Michelin from Goodyear and immediately lowered lap times a few seconds a lap per Dan Bink's book. As a result Chevrolet started equipping the higher end Corvettes with Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires instead of Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: edyvw
It would be beneficial for Castrol to go back, since we know that participating in F1 always makes products better.

If Massa retires or Williams for some other reason loses Petrobras sponsorship, perhaps Castrol will go back to them. With respect to fuels, they had a thing with Kimi and Ferrari during the pre-race today, about fuel saving, and a mention again of Esso's new fuel for McLaren.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Pontual
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: Pontual
... very high VI, maybe MPAO, part Ester base, grade kind of 10w20, max.

I trust that was a typo and you meant a 0W-20!


Nope, no typo. There's no need to zero W. There's no short driven, cold climate cranking problems in general at GP. Could even be even stout straight 20 high VI, no need to 0w20, that would decrease VI performance with such high temperatures encountered. The whole thing is mostly considered at racing conditions, not cold starts. That's my guess.

You're right there is no need to make a 0W race oil but it is an inevitable consequence when using light, high VI, base oils to formulate high VI 20, 30, 40 and even 50 grade race oils. They will wind up being 0W-20, 0W-30, 0W-40 and 0W-50 grade oils.
Under the SAE grading system, whatever winter rating an oil meets, it's a rule that that's how they are to be labelled.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: edyvw
It would be beneficial for Castrol to go back, since we know that participating in F1 always makes products better.

If Massa retires or Williams for some other reason loses Petrobras sponsorship, perhaps Castrol will go back to them. With respect to fuels, they had a thing with Kimi and Ferrari during the pre-race today, about fuel saving, and a mention again of Esso's new fuel for McLaren.

Since Williams uses Mercedes engines they are using Petronas lubricants.

 

[CATERHAM]

Garak I should add that according Mercedes-AMG F1 engine managing director Andy Cowell, the Mercedes engines supplied to the other FI teams including Williams use not only Petronas lubricants but also Petronas fuel. He mentions it early in the following video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr1j7mZkHDA

 

[billt460]

I'm starting to wonder if they took one of these cars and filled it up with Mobil 1 from Wal-Mart. Then gassed it up on 91 Premium from AM/PM, if it would make any difference?

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
You're right there is no need to make a 0W race oil but it is an inevitable consequence when using light, high VI, base oils to formulate high VI 20, 30, 40 and even 50 grade race oils. They will wind up being 0W-20, 0W-30, 0W-40 and 0W-50 grade oils.
Under the SAE grading system, whatever winter rating an oil meets, it's a rule that that's how they are to be labelled.


I doubt that you'll ever read the label on an F1 oil, and am pretty sure that the "inevitability" of it being 0W isn't that inevitable.

Why would an F1 oil be tested for MRV and CCS at -40C and -35C respectively, and thus require them to be labelled for the lowest "W" rating...again, they aren't labelled products.

Secondly, I doubt that FI are at all interested in what happens down there, and certainly wouldn't be adding PPDs etc. to go chasing MRV and the like.

Yes, you will have an incredibly high VI oil, but it's not going to thicken as it gets hotter, and the "0W" is only conjecture assuming that the oil contains (and it will) anything more than a basestock.

 

[Pontual]

I Agree, with Shannow. 0Wxx oils are for daily driven, not race driven oils. Doesn't matter the performance at subzero, although it could be good, but not inevitable. The ace is at high temps, pressures and rpms.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Since Williams uses Mercedes engines they are using Petronas lubricants.

Thanks for that video. I wonder how sticky Mercedes is if the customer team has a high powered petroleum sponsor. I know when McLaren Honda was McLaren Mercedes, they were using Mobil oil and Esso fuels, despite the position of Petronas with Mercedes AMG. Williams might be fine with Petronas given that their oil company sponsor isn't on the level of Total or Shell or Mobil or Castrol, like it used to be. Now, we need to see a Pennzoil logo on the Haas cars.

Pontual and Shannow: While 0w-XX might be a stretch, it's not outside the realm of possibility. Given the VI of racing oils, they're certainly not going to be monogrades. In racing series where "off the shelf" racing oils are chosen, they do tend to be 0w-XX or 5w-XX variants. It's easy to dismiss a 0w-XX as for a daily driver, but take a look at some of the racing oil catalogs out there.

What's good for fuel economy is also good for power.

It's interesting how Shell does UOAs for Scuderia Ferrari right at trackside whenever desired.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Then gassed it up on 91 Premium from AM/PM, if it would make any difference?

Have you seen the video I posted before with Fernando Alonso driving the Ferrari, back when he was on the team, back to back with race V-Power fuel and pump V-Power? It was pretty close.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Garak
Pontual and Shannow: While 0w-XX might be a stretch, it's not outside the realm of possibility. Given the VI of racing oils, they're certainly not going to be monogrades. In racing series where "off the shelf" racing oils are chosen, they do tend to be 0w-XX or 5w-XX variants. It's easy to dismiss a 0w-XX as for a daily driver, but take a look at some of the racing oil catalogs out there.


It's not outside possibility for certain...but it's certainly not the "inevitable" that CATERHAM painted it to be.

They MAY well be, but I'm positive (certain ???) that the F1 oils in question are never tested for CCS and MRV.

It's high VI basestocks are almost certain, but the oils are still a finished oil, built to a different set of compromises to an API registered and tested set of street oils.

The additives that go into those race oils may well introduce wax like structures into the oil, and I seriously doubt an engine that is pre-warmed to nearly boiling point to enable it to function is going to have PPDs added to meet the 0W designation.

I agree, possible, but "inevitable" ?

 

[Garak]

Personally, I wouldn't see why they'd bother testing CCS or MRV, either, although a formulator might be able to provide insight as to whether or not there would possibly be a reason to do so, even if those attributes will never be put to the test in practice. Labelling requirements would be irrelevant, too, since the oils are neither certified nor sold to the public.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Kawiguy454
Mobile did a segment on the F1 broadcast some years ago. And they basically said yes exact formulation is secret but in essence it is the same Mobile 1 you buy at the store.


MOBIL saying anything else would seriously [censored] off their marketing people, and marketing is the reason they were doing or saying anything.

 

[dparm]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Camprunner
is the engine oil used in Formula 1 cars anything like the oil we run in our everyday cars or is it totally different? would it be thick or thin viscosity?


You would have to be an actual F1 team member, or engineer to know the answer to that question with any certainty. No one here is. So all you're going to get is a bunch of assumptions, guessing and opinions.



Yep, and those guys are all under NDAs and couldn't talk about it even if they did post here.

 

[Garak]

Heck, they don't even get to switch teams without gardening leave, much less tell us the secrets of their oils.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
At high temperatures it stops thinning out and actually "expands to give more protection".

VII's do that as well and most fluids increase in volume when they get hot.

"Mercedes partner Petronas, was integral to the development of the power unit and has created an oil that seems to reverse
the laws of physics. As it heats up, Petronas Syntium, gains in density instead of getting thinner, protecting the engine
even under the greatest loads where other oils fail."

The above quote is from the following Mercedes-AMG F1 Hybrid Engine video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77I3V7FmsYQ

 

[Shannow]

advertising rather than documentary...

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Camprunner - Special fuels and lubricants have been used in this arena since at least the early 1930s. Auto-Union and Mercedes-Benz had many years of "hybrid" experience before WW2. They were a beneficiary of the leading research into synth fuels and lubricants during the 1930s - many products were unpredictable, volatile and very dangerous to use and store

 

[Under_Pressure]

Not F1, but FWIW... in the garage area at the Indy 500, AJ Foyt's team had pails of Castrol Edge Supercar 0W-20 HP. And as far as I know, they are not sponsored by Castrol, nor was there really any visible branding on the containers. It was just plain black pails with black and white labels, like you would expect from a wholesale oil distributor. So this was almost certainly for use in the race cars and not a publicity/placement thing. Last year I recall seeing empty Pennzoil Platinum bottles in a trash barrel outside one of the garages (Penske I believe) as well. Could have been something special that they bottled in normal looking containers, but I highly doubt they would go through that trouble...

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Quote:
At high temperatures it stops thinning out and actually "expands to give more protection".

VII's do that as well and most fluids increase in volume when they get hot.

Even I know that.