Painful To Find M1 5W30 ESP

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Okay someone needs to explain what the Subaru GDI-T needs...

Im going on the assumption its similar to most others of the type.

1. 2.9+ HTHS

2. Less than 1.0% Ash

3. Low calcium (If you buy into the LSPI thing)

Seems Valvoline Synpower 5w30 aka NAPA Synthetic would work fine.

Do we have a reason we need a low-Saps 3.5 HTHS Oil?
 
Mobil 1 ESP 0W-30 is the better choice.
I used Mobil 1 ESP 5w-30 and it started to make a horrible racket in my Diesel motor so I dumped it early.
Will never use it again.
 
Originally Posted By: Gene K
Okay someone needs to explain what the Subaru GDI-T needs...

Im going on the assumption its similar to most others of the type.

1. 2.9+ HTHS

2. Less than 1.0% Ash

3. Low calcium (If you buy into the LSPI thing)

Seems Valvoline Synpower 5w30 aka NAPA Synthetic would work fine.

Do we have a reason we need a low-Saps 3.5 HTHS Oil?


Going by the PQIA's table of 3 year old 5W30 synth tests, Synpower would be a reasonable choice. I guess I'd call it a mid-Ca oil, though, showed almost twice as much as M1 (2125 vs. 1161 ppm). The Synpower does look very similar to the NAPA oil, too, although there are some differences of detail (for instance, cold viscosity is substantially lower for the Valvoline than the NAPA). Neither has much moly or boron, but they are in that group of oils with a high sodium content. Of course, things could have changed given the age of these results...I have a hard time finding info on that byzantine website, there might be newer analyses for some of these oils.

I'm planning to go back to plain 'ol M1 with my next change, I really don't like the higher engine temperature thing. I don't think it really matters that much, but I still notice it almost every time I drive and it makes it harder to justify the price. Not even planning to bother with a UOA on the ESP given that I don't feel inclined to stick with it, anyway.
 
Originally Posted By: alex_at
just a quick note on the M1 5/30 ESP

I used it in my 3.0 TDI(Audi engine) Volkswagen Phaeton and I didn't like it at all, even tough it's a highly regarded oil in Europe -> very noisy top end and a noisy cam chain on startup.

But that's maybe just my engine not liking the M1 5/30 ESP.


I found the same problem in my 2.0 Diesel engine will not run again.
 
I am done with the 5W30 ESP, at least for the foreseeable future...went back to plain ol' M1 5W30 a few days ago and my engine temps are back to what I am used to. I'd say the temps were up to 10 degrees F higher than what I was used to with the ESP, although it is hard to say for sure. I was very happy when I took my first long drive after the change and the oil temp stopped climbing when I hoped it would...
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I am done with the 5W30 ESP, at least for the foreseeable future...went back to plain ol' M1 5W30 a few days ago and my engine temps are back to what I am used to. I'd say the temps were up to 10 degrees F higher than what I was used to with the ESP, although it is hard to say for sure. I was very happy when I took my first long drive after the change and the oil temp stopped climbing when I hoped it would...

Of course they are up. It is much thicker oil and will create more heat.
ESP is almost 5W40 oil. It's HTHS is 3.58cp while HTHS of new M1 0W40 is 3.6cp.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I am done with the 5W30 ESP, at least for the foreseeable future...went back to plain ol' M1 5W30 a few days ago and my engine temps are back to what I am used to. I'd say the temps were up to 10 degrees F higher than what I was used to with the ESP, although it is hard to say for sure. I was very happy when I took my first long drive after the change and the oil temp stopped climbing when I hoped it would...

Of course they are up. It is much thicker oil and will create more heat.
ESP is almost 5W40 oil. It's HTHS is 3.58cp while HTHS of new M1 0W40 is 3.6cp.


Yeah, we discussed this before...it makes sense, I just wasn't expecting it.
As I mentioned above, I don't think it's a real problem, but I just don't like the higher temps. Seems to me that has to add a little bit more stress to the engine, but maybe the stronger protective properties of the ESP more than counterbalance that. Trying the ESP was sort of an (expensive) experiment and I am very comfortable with going back to the vanilla stuff I can buy for cheap at WalMart. It's nice to not have to deal with a bunch of liter bottles, too...

Actually, I only have one more change coming up under warranty...then I can think about grades other than 5W30. Hmmmmmmm...
 
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Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Yeah, we discussed this before...it makes sense, I just wasn't expecting it.
As I mentioned above, I don't think it's a real problem, but I just don't like the higher temps. Seems to me that has to add a little bit more stress to the engine, but maybe the stronger protective properties of the ESP more than counterbalance that.


You're saying the coolant temperature was 10 degrees higher? I thought you meant the oil temperature.
 
You're saying the coolant temperature was 10 degrees higher? I thought you meant the oil temperature. [/quote]

No, I meant the oil temps...I don't monitor the coolant temp closely, have oil temp as one of the programmed readouts on my MFD.
Maybe I'm showing off my ignorance here, but I figured that hotter oil or coolant means that the engine itself is also a bit hotter. Maybe I shouldn't care, but I probably need more education to understand why.
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi

Quote:
You're saying the coolant temperature was 10 degrees higher? I thought you meant the oil temperature.


No, I meant the oil temps...I don't monitor the coolant temp closely, have oil temp as one of the programmed readouts on my MFD.
Maybe I'm showing off my ignorance here, but I figured that hotter oil or coolant means that the engine itself is also a bit hotter. Maybe I shouldn't care, but I probably need more education to understand why.

10 degrees is nothing. It is also in Fahrenheit.
In Subaru turbo, I would always run Euro spec oil. If 10 degrees is a problem for that engine, then you seriously have problem.
Take into consideration that 10 degrees might increase efficiency. Also, you are running higher oil pressure with ESP which means faster heat exchange.
But more importantly for turbo is that ESP has HTHS of 3.58 compare to I think 3.1 in EP.
Personally, once warranty is out, I would run M1 0W40.
 
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
10 degrees is nothing. It is also in Fahrenheit.
In Subaru turbo, I would always run Euro spec oil. If 10 degrees is a problem for that engine, then you seriously have problem.
Take into consideration that 10 degrees might increase efficiency. Also, you are running higher oil pressure with ESP which means faster heat exchange.
But more importantly for turbo is that ESP has HTHS of 3.58 compare to I think 3.1 in EP.
Personally, once warranty is out, I would run M1 0W40.

+1
Besides, ESP would be more shear stable.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: edyvw
10 degrees is nothing. It is also in Fahrenheit.
In Subaru turbo, I would always run Euro spec oil. If 10 degrees is a problem for that engine, then you seriously have problem.
Take into consideration that 10 degrees might increase efficiency. Also, you are running higher oil pressure with ESP which means faster heat exchange.
But more importantly for turbo is that ESP has HTHS of 3.58 compare to I think 3.1 in EP.
Personally, once warranty is out, I would run M1 0W40.


My understanding is that M1 0W40's formulation changed recently and I can't find a VOA less than 5 years old at this point, but it used to be a very high calcium oil. No way I'm running that in a DIT engine if it has massive calcium. My car was already recalled for LSPI issues, so I know it is a real problem with the Subaru 2.0l DIT.

But, not having to worry about running 5W30 for the warranty gives me freedom to consider "heavier" oils that won't cost me $50 per change when purchased in 10-12 liter quantities. I have about six months to think about how much I care about engine temps and to find some non-5w30 low calcium oils to consider.
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I have about six months to think about how much I care about engine temps and to find some non-5w30 low calcium oils to consider.


OK but it's not engine temp, it's oil temp, correct?
 
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I have about six months to think about how much I care about engine temps and to find some non-5w30 low calcium oils to consider.


OK but it's not engine temp, it's oil temp, correct?


Yes, it was increased oil temps shown on my MFD that caught my eye when I tried the ESP. I haven't been watching the coolant temps.
But, I suspect the engine itself is hotter if one of the fluids that is cooling it is known to be hotter.
The operation of the engine is generating heat and the coolant and oil both work to carry that heat away.
If the coolant temperature rises for a given engine operating condition, I think it's usually because it is not circulating properly or the fans driving air through the radiator are not working. I don't think the worry is about the coolant itself failing due to high temps, but the fact that the coolant being hot means it is not drawing enough heat away from the engine to be dissipated.
I feel it must be a similar situation with the oil, it being hotter means the engine itself is hotter.
As mentioned above, the engine is likely hotter because the ESP oil is thicker at temp and it requires more work, generating more heat, to circulate it and move components through it.
If somebody can convince me that the properties of M1 5W30 ESP are different enough from the plain 'ol M1 that it can be at a higher temp without the engine also being hotter, I'm all ears.
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: edyvw
10 degrees is nothing. It is also in Fahrenheit.
In Subaru turbo, I would always run Euro spec oil. If 10 degrees is a problem for that engine, then you seriously have problem.
Take into consideration that 10 degrees might increase efficiency. Also, you are running higher oil pressure with ESP which means faster heat exchange.
But more importantly for turbo is that ESP has HTHS of 3.58 compare to I think 3.1 in EP.
Personally, once warranty is out, I would run M1 0W40.


My understanding is that M1 0W40's formulation changed recently and I can't find a VOA less than 5 years old at this point, but it used to be a very high calcium oil. No way I'm running that in a DIT engine if it has massive calcium. My car was already recalled for LSPI issues, so I know it is a real problem with the Subaru 2.0l DIT.

But, not having to worry about running 5W30 for the warranty gives me freedom to consider "heavier" oils that won't cost me $50 per change when purchased in 10-12 liter quantities. I have about six months to think about how much I care about engine temps and to find some non-5w30 low calcium oils to consider.

They did change, that is why I am talking about M1, since HTHS is 3.6 which is almost HTHS of some 0W30 oils or 5W40.
One option is Castrol 0W40 that has TBN lower then M1 0W40. I think Castrol is 1.15 and M1 is 1.32.
However, castrol has HTHS of 3.7cp. That might work great in your car or might be an overkill. Check what Subaru recommends in Germany (weight). Usually Japanese mfg go with heavier oils in Europe. If 0/5W40 is recommended there then you have much more option.
Take into consideration that NAPA has sale every month on certain brand. Good option might be Valvoline 5W30 MST. It has some really goo numbers, and I bought 24qt in NAPA for $4.99 per qt.
In June NAPA had ESP on sale for $5.99 per qt.
 
I have decided that I am going to use M1 5W30 ESP as my warmer weather oil starting next spring and just bought a case of 12 liter bottles on Amazon for just over $97 with free shipping...the equivalent per-quart price of about $7.70 sounded pretty good. I decided that I didn't really care about the higher oil temps I saw with it and really like its low calcium, low SAPS, super low NOACK, higher HTHS, and high flashpoint (24C higher than standard M1 5W30). I am more comfortable with M1 5W30 EP for winter due to its lower CCS viscosity.
Seems like there was a bit of a run on that Amazon deal, it said about 15 units left when I ordered yesterday and now it says orders usually ship in 1 to 2 months...honestly, that timeframe would have worked fine for me, but I don't like the word "usually".
;^)
 
Originally Posted By: alex_at
just a quick note on the M1 5/30 ESP

I used it in my 3.0 TDI(Audi engine) Volkswagen Phaeton and I didn't like it at all, even tough it's a highly regarded oil in Europe -> very noisy top end and a noisy cam chain on startup.

But that's maybe just my engine not liking the M1 5/30 ESP.


What oil worked for your TDI?
 
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I have decided that I am going to use M1 5W30 ESP
I decided that I didn't really care about the higher oil temps I saw with it and really like its low calcium, low SAPS, super low NOACK, higher HTHS, and high flashpoint
(24C higher than standard M1 5W30). I am more comfortable with M1 5W30 EP for winter due to its lower CCS viscosity.
Seems like there was a bit of a run on that Amazon deal, it said about 15 units left when I ordered yesterday and now it says orders usually ship in 1 to 2 months...honestly, that timeframe would have worked fine for me, but I don't like the word "usually".
;^)


where'd you get the NOACK info for the ESP ?
 
Originally Posted By: cnatra
Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
I have decided that I am going to use M1 5W30 ESP
I decided that I didn't really care about the higher oil temps I saw with it and really like its low calcium, low SAPS, super low NOACK, higher HTHS, and high flashpoint
(24C higher than standard M1 5W30). I am more comfortable with M1 5W30 EP for winter due to its lower CCS viscosity.
Seems like there was a bit of a run on that Amazon deal, it said about 15 units left when I ordered yesterday and now it says orders usually ship in 1 to 2 months...honestly, that timeframe would have worked fine for me, but I don't like the word "usually".
;^)


where'd you get the NOACK info for the ESP ?


I have seen two NOACK results for M1 5W30 ESP, both around 6%...one was definitely on the Russian Oil Club website that is referenced in a thread in the VOA forum here. Seems like kind of an odd source, but they have been very similar to the PQIA for oils that I was able to compare head to head (but not EXACTLY the same!).
I can't find the source of the other reading right now, but it was slightly different than the ROC's so I hoped they were independent results. I know that flash point does not necessarily correlate well to NOACK, but Exxon/Mobil does publish that value and it is quite high at 254C...gives me a good feeling.
 
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