I travel a lot between IL, IN, MI, and OH, and I must say, many, if not most of the roads I travel on are in terrible condition. I tow my motorcycle on a trailer almost every weekend during the summer and my trailer, the bike, and my car take a terrible beating from the roads. This is no exaggeration, I-70 between Indy and Dayton is so bad, both rear turn signals on my last bike snapped right off, and I've had tiedown straps ripped off too (this just happened on my way home last night). The transitions between the part of the highway that's on the ground to the part that's part of an overpass are the really bad spots. These areas are so rough they beat the [censored] out of everything. I-65 between Chicago and Indy are the same way. In MI, their problems are the expansion joints. Most of them are so bad it's like hitting a speed bump every 30 feet. What is the purpose of expansion joints anyway (other than being extremely annoying), and why can't they build their roads without them like most other places? I realize the maintenance of our highways infrastructure has been in decline over the years, but I didn't think they would be allowed to get this bad...you almost have to be driving a semi just to deal with the horrible roads...
Highway conditions in the Midwest
- Thread starter grampi
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Out here its often smoother to drive on the dirt shoulder
Totally agree, it's getting crazy how bad they let the roads get. Can't really blame them though, most metro areas outgrew the road infrastructure long ago and good luck shutting it down to replace it. Being in MN, that's one of the main reasons I sold my motorcycle. The metro freeways are in such bad shape that I just didn't feel safe riding anymore. Between the huge transitions that want to rocket you off your bike to the cracks and potholes the size of a tire, it's not worth it. I almost ate it a few times last summer because of the roads. With a family and kids I decided that was it for me and sold the bike.
Cars take a beating up here too. Our 2010 Impala blew or bent a strut from hitting one of those bridge transitions they were doing construction on. The right front was sitting a good inch lower than the left.
Cars take a beating up here too. Our 2010 Impala blew or bent a strut from hitting one of those bridge transitions they were doing construction on. The right front was sitting a good inch lower than the left.
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constant front end maintenance is a must along with tire balance and rotation.
i just about ruined a new tire(s) i just purchased them about 6 months ago, cuz my alignment went bad and I didn't catch it in time. I have the tire on the back now but, it doesn't sound the best back there!
i just about ruined a new tire(s) i just purchased them about 6 months ago, cuz my alignment went bad and I didn't catch it in time. I have the tire on the back now but, it doesn't sound the best back there!
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Sounds like you are asking for a tax increase?
Hmmm. The thing about the US is that in general we're good at building new, not so good at maintaining old. All the new, exciting highway projects go through and are approved, while many older, heavily used roads are in horrible shape.
Sounds like you are asking for a tax increase?
Hmmm. The thing about the US is that in general we're good at building new, not so good at maintaining old. All the new, exciting highway projects go through and are approved, while many older, heavily used roads are in horrible shape.
I haven't ventured too far into the midwest by car - nothing past Ohio. However, I am from Central NY state - a part of the country where people often claim to have the worst roads in the country.
However, I will say that Pennsylvania has the worst roads I have ever encountered.
There were a few heaves on 81 in PA that were so large that my pop-up camper, fully loaded, actually left the road. And we were not going the posted speed limit - posted speed limit was 65 and we were running 55. When we stopped for lunch, my friend following me mentioned that the Popup left the road a few times.
The worst is when they pave over the concrete highways and 20 years later the expansion joints are causing heaves. There's not much that can be done as there just isn't any money allocated to fixing the roads.
However, I will say that Pennsylvania has the worst roads I have ever encountered.
There were a few heaves on 81 in PA that were so large that my pop-up camper, fully loaded, actually left the road. And we were not going the posted speed limit - posted speed limit was 65 and we were running 55. When we stopped for lunch, my friend following me mentioned that the Popup left the road a few times.
The worst is when they pave over the concrete highways and 20 years later the expansion joints are causing heaves. There's not much that can be done as there just isn't any money allocated to fixing the roads.
The cost to maintain road and bridge infrastructure is absurd. The price of concrete has rising like RX drug prices. Vehicle are more efficient, people are driving less and the fuel tax hasn't kept up with inflation.
In short, the answer is the lack of funding for maintenance of the road network. I don't know the specifics of those states, but can point to the state I live in, MN, as an example of why things are falling apart...
I can go into a long rant about the funding of our road network, but its easiest just to state that funding has not kept up with the need to maintain and modernize. I can already hear the cries that we are overtaxed already, and in many ways, I don't disagree. The problem is where our taxes go - transportation used to be where a big chunk went, but on a percentage basis, that share has been decreasing as we fund a multitude of social and other programs. I won't debate the merits of that here, but just point out that is a problem.
On expansion joints, they are required in concrete to allow the concrete to expand and contract with the changes in temperature. While the actual amount the concrete expands and contracts is relatively small, the forces it generates when doing so are not. Without them, the road would buckle in random locations at random times in a random pattern. (Ever hear about a road buckling in hot weather? Happens all the time here...) Adding the joints in controls this movement, allows the concrete room to move, and essentially creates panels that can move relative to each other. We've even started to do this as preventative work on bituminous roads. Why are they so bad on the roads you describe? No idea. We have significantly changed how our concrete roads are built here, as we used to build them similar to what you described. I can guarantee that any concrete road you've driven on has joints - you just aren't noticing them on some.
On bridge deck approaches, the issues are often differential settlement of the approaches and the bridge itself. The bridge is usually anchored pretty well, but the soil approches often donlt get the same attention. And being different materials and types, they move and settle at different rates, and move at different rates with the frost and moisture changes as well. Paying better attention to them during construction and having tighter specs can alleviate a lot of this - but it costs money to build things right.
We also build roads by low bidder. Contractor comes in, builds the road to spec (or at least if they are honest or get caught trying to cut corners), and walks away. Other parts of the world include the maintenance - giving less of an incentive for the contractor to cheat - since they are going to need to maintain things down the road.
Long story short, we spend a lot of money on roads, but it isn't enough to keep pace with what we have in play today...
I can go into a long rant about the funding of our road network, but its easiest just to state that funding has not kept up with the need to maintain and modernize. I can already hear the cries that we are overtaxed already, and in many ways, I don't disagree. The problem is where our taxes go - transportation used to be where a big chunk went, but on a percentage basis, that share has been decreasing as we fund a multitude of social and other programs. I won't debate the merits of that here, but just point out that is a problem.
On expansion joints, they are required in concrete to allow the concrete to expand and contract with the changes in temperature. While the actual amount the concrete expands and contracts is relatively small, the forces it generates when doing so are not. Without them, the road would buckle in random locations at random times in a random pattern. (Ever hear about a road buckling in hot weather? Happens all the time here...) Adding the joints in controls this movement, allows the concrete room to move, and essentially creates panels that can move relative to each other. We've even started to do this as preventative work on bituminous roads. Why are they so bad on the roads you describe? No idea. We have significantly changed how our concrete roads are built here, as we used to build them similar to what you described. I can guarantee that any concrete road you've driven on has joints - you just aren't noticing them on some.
On bridge deck approaches, the issues are often differential settlement of the approaches and the bridge itself. The bridge is usually anchored pretty well, but the soil approches often donlt get the same attention. And being different materials and types, they move and settle at different rates, and move at different rates with the frost and moisture changes as well. Paying better attention to them during construction and having tighter specs can alleviate a lot of this - but it costs money to build things right.
We also build roads by low bidder. Contractor comes in, builds the road to spec (or at least if they are honest or get caught trying to cut corners), and walks away. Other parts of the world include the maintenance - giving less of an incentive for the contractor to cheat - since they are going to need to maintain things down the road.
Long story short, we spend a lot of money on roads, but it isn't enough to keep pace with what we have in play today...
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
The cost to maintain road and bridge infrastructure is absurd. The price of concrete has rising like RX drug prices. Vehicle are more efficient, people are driving less and the fuel tax hasn't kept up with inflation.
It's difficult to know what the problem is in terms of funding road maintenance...is it a matter of not collecting enough in taxes, is it that what's being collected is being spent on other things besides our roads, or is it a combination of the two...
The cost to maintain road and bridge infrastructure is absurd. The price of concrete has rising like RX drug prices. Vehicle are more efficient, people are driving less and the fuel tax hasn't kept up with inflation.
It's difficult to know what the problem is in terms of funding road maintenance...is it a matter of not collecting enough in taxes, is it that what's being collected is being spent on other things besides our roads, or is it a combination of the two...
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
In short, the answer is the lack of funding for maintenance of the road network. I don't know the specifics of those states, but can point to the state I live in, MN, as an example of why things are falling apart...
I can go into a long rant about the funding of our road network, but its easiest just to state that funding has not kept up with the need to maintain and modernize. I can already hear the cries that we are overtaxed already, and in many ways, I don't disagree. The problem is where our taxes go - transportation used to be where a big chunk went, but on a percentage basis, that share has been decreasing as we fund a multitude of social and other programs. I won't debate the merits of that here, but just point out that is a problem.
On expansion joints, they are required in concrete to allow the concrete to expand and contract with the changes in temperature. While the actual amount the concrete expands and contracts is relatively small, the forces it generates when doing so are not. Without them, the road would buckle in random locations at random times in a random pattern. (Ever hear about a road buckling in hot weather? Happens all the time here...) Adding the joints in controls this movement, allows the concrete room to move, and essentially creates panels that can move relative to each other. We've even started to do this as preventative work on bituminous roads. Why are they so bad on the roads you describe? No idea. We have significantly changed how our concrete roads are built here, as we used to build them similar to what you described. I can guarantee that any concrete road you've driven on has joints - you just aren't noticing them on some.
On bridge deck approaches, the issues are often differential settlement of the approaches and the bridge itself. The bridge is usually anchored pretty well, but the soil approches often donlt get the same attention. And being different materials and types, they move and settle at different rates, and move at different rates with the frost and moisture changes as well. Paying better attention to them during construction and having tighter specs can alleviate a lot of this - but it costs money to build things right.
We also build roads by low bidder. Contractor comes in, builds the road to spec (or at least if they are honest or get caught trying to cut corners), and walks away. Other parts of the world include the maintenance - giving less of an incentive for the contractor to cheat - since they are going to need to maintain things down the road.
Long story short, we spend a lot of money on roads, but it isn't enough to keep pace with what we have in play today...
The expansion joints I'm referring to are actually on blacktop roads...I haven't encountered them as much on concrete...it's still puzzling as to why they seem to be built into the roads almost everywhere in MI, while they don't seem to be used much in the other Midwestern states I mentioned. What is different about Michigan's soil, climate, or whatever it is that requires them as opposed to other Midwestern states that don't make their roads with them? Or is it less expensive to build the roads with expansion joints as opposed to building them some other way without them?
In short, the answer is the lack of funding for maintenance of the road network. I don't know the specifics of those states, but can point to the state I live in, MN, as an example of why things are falling apart...
I can go into a long rant about the funding of our road network, but its easiest just to state that funding has not kept up with the need to maintain and modernize. I can already hear the cries that we are overtaxed already, and in many ways, I don't disagree. The problem is where our taxes go - transportation used to be where a big chunk went, but on a percentage basis, that share has been decreasing as we fund a multitude of social and other programs. I won't debate the merits of that here, but just point out that is a problem.
On expansion joints, they are required in concrete to allow the concrete to expand and contract with the changes in temperature. While the actual amount the concrete expands and contracts is relatively small, the forces it generates when doing so are not. Without them, the road would buckle in random locations at random times in a random pattern. (Ever hear about a road buckling in hot weather? Happens all the time here...) Adding the joints in controls this movement, allows the concrete room to move, and essentially creates panels that can move relative to each other. We've even started to do this as preventative work on bituminous roads. Why are they so bad on the roads you describe? No idea. We have significantly changed how our concrete roads are built here, as we used to build them similar to what you described. I can guarantee that any concrete road you've driven on has joints - you just aren't noticing them on some.
On bridge deck approaches, the issues are often differential settlement of the approaches and the bridge itself. The bridge is usually anchored pretty well, but the soil approches often donlt get the same attention. And being different materials and types, they move and settle at different rates, and move at different rates with the frost and moisture changes as well. Paying better attention to them during construction and having tighter specs can alleviate a lot of this - but it costs money to build things right.
We also build roads by low bidder. Contractor comes in, builds the road to spec (or at least if they are honest or get caught trying to cut corners), and walks away. Other parts of the world include the maintenance - giving less of an incentive for the contractor to cheat - since they are going to need to maintain things down the road.
Long story short, we spend a lot of money on roads, but it isn't enough to keep pace with what we have in play today...
The expansion joints I'm referring to are actually on blacktop roads...I haven't encountered them as much on concrete...it's still puzzling as to why they seem to be built into the roads almost everywhere in MI, while they don't seem to be used much in the other Midwestern states I mentioned. What is different about Michigan's soil, climate, or whatever it is that requires them as opposed to other Midwestern states that don't make their roads with them? Or is it less expensive to build the roads with expansion joints as opposed to building them some other way without them?
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Sounds like you are asking for a tax increase?
I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes if I knew for certain that 1) ALL of the tax revenues that are currently being collected for maintaining our roads was being spent on roads, and 2) ALL of any increased taxes would be spent on roads...I would be 100% against any tax increases if ANY of the money is being syphoned off for other non-related projects...
Sounds like you are asking for a tax increase?
I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes if I knew for certain that 1) ALL of the tax revenues that are currently being collected for maintaining our roads was being spent on roads, and 2) ALL of any increased taxes would be spent on roads...I would be 100% against any tax increases if ANY of the money is being syphoned off for other non-related projects...
Nick1994
$100 site donor 2024
I guess we take the little things for granted.
Arizona has fantastic roads, they're in great shape. Of course there's some bad spots but they get the attention they need sooner or later. I heard somewhere that the percentage of money collected for roadwork in Arizona must be spent on roadwork, that that money cannot be dipped into for other things. And it shows.
Arizona has fantastic roads, they're in great shape. Of course there's some bad spots but they get the attention they need sooner or later. I heard somewhere that the percentage of money collected for roadwork in Arizona must be spent on roadwork, that that money cannot be dipped into for other things. And it shows.
Originally Posted By: Nick1994
I guess we take the little things for granted.
Arizona has fantastic roads, they're in great shape. Of course there's some bad spots but they get the attention they need sooner or later. I heard somewhere that the percentage of money collected for roadwork in Arizona must be spent on roadwork, that that money cannot be dipped into for other things. And it shows.
I don't understand how ANY state can get away with spending ANY of the revenues collected for the roads on other things...aren't there other taxes collected for the "other things?" On the federal side, it's a lot like the social security revenues being spent on non-ss related things...those doing it should be hanged!
I guess we take the little things for granted.
Arizona has fantastic roads, they're in great shape. Of course there's some bad spots but they get the attention they need sooner or later. I heard somewhere that the percentage of money collected for roadwork in Arizona must be spent on roadwork, that that money cannot be dipped into for other things. And it shows.
I don't understand how ANY state can get away with spending ANY of the revenues collected for the roads on other things...aren't there other taxes collected for the "other things?" On the federal side, it's a lot like the social security revenues being spent on non-ss related things...those doing it should be hanged!
JHZR2
Staff member
It is well known that infrastructure across the USA is crumbling. Those areas are known for having some pretty wide swings between summer and winter, lots of industry/heavy vehicle traffic, etc. I sure frost heaves and potholes are the norm. If transportation trust funds (or any trust funds for that matter) are raided, it's beyond treacherous.
I honestly don't think the issue is so much of one of raiding dedicated funds - its that the dedicated funds being collected aren't keeping pace with the cost of maintenance/expansion/repair. I'll add an asterisk to that in that in some cases some of the funding that used to go to roads is now being dedicated to transit type projects - light rail, etc...
As far as Michigan's road building technique and soils, that is well outside my area of knowledge. I will state we had issues with roads of a certain vintage here that had "tenting" problems. Essentially a component of the road subbase expanded much more than anticipated when wet, and that was exacerbated with. The end result was a road that was difficult to drive safely - and felt a lot like expansion joints, just bigger. Final solution was to pull all the subbase materials out and replace them with a higher cost material...
As far as Michigan's road building technique and soils, that is well outside my area of knowledge. I will state we had issues with roads of a certain vintage here that had "tenting" problems. Essentially a component of the road subbase expanded much more than anticipated when wet, and that was exacerbated with. The end result was a road that was difficult to drive safely - and felt a lot like expansion joints, just bigger. Final solution was to pull all the subbase materials out and replace them with a higher cost material...
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Sounds like you are asking for a tax increase?
Doesnt matter if you ask for it or not, its coming...
Ever hit a pothole on the highway, left lane, 70MPH+?
Sounds like you are asking for a tax increase?
Doesnt matter if you ask for it or not, its coming...
Ever hit a pothole on the highway, left lane, 70MPH+?
Try looking at your trailer and see if the springs are to much for the weight.In other words does the rig have enough give? Think about how much you actually carry.
The roads freezing and thawing is the problem. Sounds funny but i think earthquakes may have something to do with it.Central Ca. has nasty rough roads,I-5 makes stuff fall out of overhead compartments on big rigs.
The roads freezing and thawing is the problem. Sounds funny but i think earthquakes may have something to do with it.Central Ca. has nasty rough roads,I-5 makes stuff fall out of overhead compartments on big rigs.
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