Gear oil mixed in with Diesel Engine Oil ...

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Here's an interesting video. I have been watching this guy's teardown of his ISX cummins engine. Nothing to contribute here - but trying to start some discussion on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whi5yTU3_qk

A lot of people have said that adding gear oil to an engine would ruin the soft metals. I always joke about it - but would never seriously suggest running gear oil.

This guy has added a gallon of gear oil to it every oil change.

Granted, in an engine that has a 14 GALLON capacity, one gallon of gear oil isn't that much ... in a car with a 5 quart oil capacity, that's a bit more than 1/2 pint. Probably better than adding Lucas.

Watching his engine disassembly, it is quite clean for a diesel. Not too much wear in the other videos.

What do you people think?
 
I dunno, any time I pulled the valve cover off my TDi it was clean. Granted, I used costly euro spec diesel oil, and changed every 10-12kmiles. But no varnish or crud buildup, not after 11 years and 314kmiles.
21.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
....
Watching his engine disassembly, it is quite clean for a diesel. Not too much wear in the other videos.

What do you people think?


Watch the video again an listen closely from minut 5:03 till somwhere around 5:40 -> I think that's why the engine has almost no wear at all, simply because the way he took care when using his engine

Clean engine: Diesel oil has a good amount of detergent, change it frequently and you'll have a clean engine. According to his video he used regular Rotella T, a well known oil on this forum.
 
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also what I don't get (yet): Why gear lube? What's the point of running gear lube in your engine?

Rotella T + gear lube vs synthetic -> wouldn't be synthetic the better way to go?

also interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agO7JY_uW7Y

from minute 5:30 -> there's a yellowish tint on the camshaft, which according to the guy in the video acts like a coating on the camshaft that prevents wear .... what he doesn't say is whether that yellowish "anti wear" tint comes from the engine oil or the gear lube....
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Here's an interesting video. I have been watching this guy's teardown of his ISX cummins engine. Nothing to contribute here - but trying to start some discussion on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whi5yTU3_qk

A lot of people have said that adding gear oil to an engine would ruin the soft metals. I always joke about it - but would never seriously suggest running gear oil.

This guy has added a gallon of gear oil to it every oil change.

Granted, in an engine that has a 14 GALLON capacity, one gallon of gear oil isn't that much ... in a car with a 5 quart oil capacity, that's a bit more than 1/2 pint. Probably better than adding Lucas.

Watching his engine disassembly, it is quite clean for a diesel. Not too much wear in the other videos.

What do you people think?


Diesels are usually clean because oil in diesel engines contain some amount of diesel, a,great solvent. Can't see the point in using gearbox oils in engine but, don't see any short term problems.
 
I copped a lot of flack some years ago for describing this as a poor practice when one of the "mixologists" of note pointed out that he'd done it somewhat regularly.

I took the premise of D6922, the "mixability standard", which is mix it, cool it, heat it to 150C, and see if it does anything weird, blows chunks, precipitates or whatnot.

When heated (propane torch to the bottom of a stainless pan), the mix fizzed a little, and chunks, like soap rose to the surface, skidded around some, and dropped back in.

Gear oils have traditionally acid based additive systems, while engine oils are obviously alkaline...if you are going to get negative interactions, this is where you will get them...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=497463

Again, this is a case of "nothing blew up" as a result of his practice, not demonstrative of any beneficial effect that running plain engine oil wouldn't have achieved.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow

Gear oils have traditionally acid based additive systems, while engine oils are obviously alkaline...if you are going to get negative interactions, this is where you will get them...

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=497463

Again, this is a case of "nothing blew up" as a result of his practice, not demonstrative of any beneficial effect that running plain engine oil wouldn't have achieved.



I thought so.

So at the end of the day, the engine would pretty sure look as good with minimal wear if he just had used quality Diesel oil with regular changing intervals, especially since he also states in his videos that he's pretty careful driving that truck with minimal load, minimal boost. I think his driving style is what really is the reason behind his 1 million mile engine with minimal wear.


And: Who knows what kind of reaction will be triggered by mixing gear oil with engine oil, since they are based on completely different approaches (alkaline vs the opposite.)
 
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The last diesel engine I have seen with gunk internally was a 2 stroke Detroit, I have several modern to somewhat modern 4 stroke diesel engines and we adjust the valves every 1,200 hours, no gunk and in fact remarkably clean with one engine approaching 13,000 hours. The non-sense of mixing anything with a properly blended motor oil is just plain silly and counter-productive.
 
What is it in the American psyche that causes so many folks to feel that motor oil needs to have something added to it? A casual look at shelves in auto parts stores and such sure cause me to ponder what is it that causes people to feel that the oil companies just can't do anything right and they need help.
 
Yep, as I mentioned in another thread, gear lubes contain Extreme Pressure (EP) additives with high levels of sulfur and lower levels of phosphorus. In engines we use Anti-Wear additives, not Extreme Pressure additives.

At engine temperatures, these EP lubes produce sulfuric and phosphoric acids, which result in corrosion pitting of most metals.

TiredTrucker stated it well. People without an intimate knowledge of the chemical effects of various compounds needs to keep their fingers out of engine oil.
 
Originally Posted By: MolaKule

TiredTrucker stated it well. People without an intimate knowledge of the chemical effects of various compounds needs to keep their fingers out of engine oil.


I think this is generally because people are in a state of wanting to do more and wanting to be involved in a process that they are forced to do on a regular basis (OCI,long-term maintenance) etc... instead of constantly being in the dark on things, people attempt to grab hold of any bit of information that they can to try to bring some sort of progression or understanding to things (for themselves), unfortunately the industry looks to be anything BUT transparent which makes people generally distrusting and maybe a bit radical at times depending on perception.

There is no clear or proper information provided that aids or helps inform the Layman about anything regarding automotive.

With lack of authoritative and proper information this is when usually poor decisions are brewed up and made.

Idk maybe I am way off :p

- - - - - - -

btw your posts always seem pretty awesome MolaKule - appreciate you taking the time over the years and posting so much information
 
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Originally Posted By: Kwuality
There is no clear or proper information provided that aids or helps inform the Layman about anything regarding automotive.


Generally, the owner's manual gives you everything that you need to know...
 
A test of the new uploading thing. Nissan LD20 rocker cover at around 330,000km (205,000miles) This was just a rinse in the partswasher to remove oil, no scrubbing required. There is no need to add anything to oil to keep a diesel clean, this is normal.

 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Kwuality
There is no clear or proper information provided that aids or helps inform the Layman about anything regarding automotive.


Generally, the owner's manual gives you everything that you need to know...


I was actually going to add something about that to the previous post... shame on me for not addressing that.

I guess my perception and thought of a Layman might expend beyond the traditional definition.

To me it seems that the owner's manual is written at a 5th grade level (heh). It simply does not explain anything that is satisfying in detail besides a set and standardized way of doing things with regulations, while never explaining the mindset behind any of it or answering to the "why" that people are constantly chasing after.

Very little explanation and again no transparency from the owner's manual - just a set way of doing things with very little if no explanation provided, besides the common industry statements: "It works!" and "because we know best!" etc...

Got questions? Go to your local *insert company name* dealer here.

Honestly though.... I understand that apparently this is how it has always been, but it is simple not good enough anymore and really the wrong way of handling information around something that affects everyone's day-to-day lives.

Now I am in no way supporting meddling with incorrect information, but I am certainly in support of transparency and growth of knowledge and unfortunately this industry is severely lacking in that category. Hence why people are probably going forth with their own experimentation - attempting to seek some further understanding.

I guess that's why this forum is around aye?
wink.gif
 
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Originally Posted By: Kwuality
I think this is generally because people are in a state of wanting to do more and wanting to be involved in a process that they are forced to do on a regular basis (OCI,long-term maintenance) etc... instead of constantly being in the dark on things, people attempt to grab hold of any bit of information that they can to try to bring some sort of progression or understanding to things (for themselves), unfortunately the industry looks to be anything BUT transparent which makes people generally distrusting and maybe a bit radical at times depending on perception.
There is no clear or proper information provided that aids or helps inform the Layman about anything regarding automotive.
With lack of authoritative and proper information this is when usually poor decisions are brewed up and made.
Idk maybe I am way off :p
- - - - - - -btw your posts always seem pretty awesome MolaKule - appreciate you taking the time over the years and posting so much information

+1
Yes, the finished product in oil industry specifically relating to formulations is completely opaque and totally lack of transparency,
despite being a science matter ...... with attending pressence of regulating/standards organisatons like API, ACEA etc that's lot more trensparent.
Hence ..... this oil tinkling will go on ...... and often times it works as intended by end users........and at times ignoring those hiding under the proprietary non-sense thing.
 
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Originally Posted By: zeng

+1
Yes, the finished product in oil industry specifically relating to formulations is completely opaque and totally lack of transparency,
despite being a science matter ...... with attending pressence of regulating/standards organisatons like API, ACEA etc that's lot more trensparent.
Hence ..... this oil tinkling will go on ...... and often times it works as intended by end users........and at times ignoring those hiding under the proprietary non-sense thing.


I guess everyone's idea of transparency is really based off of perspective on what each individual views.
To me, it's not enough and perhaps even at a subconscious level for others it may not be either. This might explain why so many people stubbornly tend to drift down these "tinkering" paths regardless of being thrown scientific information and articles.
People seem to be just trying to come to a certain level of understanding with things and wanting to improve upon the best way of doing things - especially if they are not from a background of science or chemistry.

I think everyone's intentions are usually good, but unfortunately usually misguided at times due to super convincing anecdotal stories or even to an extreme of misrepresented results from tests.
Everything cluttered with half truths.

---

I honestly think that I have edited all my posts like 2314354 times for all the typo's and grammar issues - le tired - cant type - sorry in advance ^_^ *simply
 
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Originally Posted By: Kwuality
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Kwuality
There is no clear or proper information provided that aids or helps inform the Layman about anything regarding automotive.


Generally, the owner's manual gives you everything that you need to know...


I was actually going to add something about that to the previous post... shame on me for not addressing that.

I guess my perception and thought of a Layman might expend beyond the traditional definition.

To me it seems that the owner's manual is written at a 5th grade level (heh). It simply does not explain anything that is satisfying in detail besides a set and standardized way of doing things with regulations, while never explaining the mindset behind any of it or answering to the "why" that people are constantly chasing after.

Very little explanation and again no transparency from the owner's manual - just a set way of doing things with very little if no explanation provided, besides the common industry statements: "It works!" and "because we know best!" etc...

Got questions? Go to your local *insert company name* dealer here.

Honestly though.... I understand that apparently this is how it has always been, but it is simple not good enough anymore and really the wrong way of handling information around something that affects everyone's day-to-day lives.

Now I am in no way supporting meddling with incorrect information, but I am certainly in support of transparency and growth of knowledge and unfortunately this industry is severely lacking in that category. Hence why people are probably going forth with their own experimentation - attempting to seek some further understanding.

I guess that's why this forum is around aye?
wink.gif


Well said, Kwuality.
thumbsup2.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Kwuality

I think everyone's intentions are usually good, but unfortunately usually misguided at times due to super convincing anecdotal stories or even to an extreme of misrepresented results from tests.
Everything cluttered with half truths.



Kinda like the timken bearing machine testing stuff at flea markets and such.
 
Originally Posted By: TiredTrucker
What is it in the American psyche that causes so many folks to feel that motor oil needs to have something added to it? A casual look at shelves in auto parts stores and such sure cause me to ponder what is it that causes people to feel that the oil companies just can't do anything right and they need help.


I was going to say something similar, but you beat me to it. Rotella, Delvac, and even Supertech have been used for years and have more than proven themselves. I am not sure what the issue is.
 
The motor in question is a Cummins isx cm871 dual overhead cam. if you own one of these or have any understanding of this engine then you would get why a guy would run a gear lube in it. These motor's have barely any oil at the top end which was a design flaw by cummins, My heavy duty mechanic who is a expert engine builder has even recently said he understands why guys would do it.

I bought barrels of mobil 1 le 5w30 and even with that, I was still able to eat up my one cam and 4 rockers. This guy is able to run the cheapest rotella with a galon of gear lube and his motor looks betterms then any I've seen.

Here is what everyone needs to realize. This is not a little Isuzu motor were talking about. I don't care that you can keep your oil clean in your 1/4 tonne.... We are taking about a big rig 15L engine that has a million miles pulling 80,000lbs!

Your theories about what gear lubes do are essentially null and void because real life experience is what matters and this video is proof that it works. Where are the pitted metals you speak of? I sure don't see them..... Those rods and mains look [censored] near brand new!

I would also like to point out that the guy on this video does have a understanding of what he is doing, in fact he has his own forum dedicated to this engine and is considered the top expert on it.

Here is his writeup which explains why the gear lube rather then lucks. Some may agree and some may not but like I said, it's hard to argue against real world results and although shirt oil change intervals can explain the clean oil, it wouldn't help the lack of lubrication on the top end.

http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=109
 
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