Best ammo size for close quarter residential ?

[2cool]

Hi Merkava,
Here's a distillation of my research about SD situation.
1. Wound to stop is a fallacy. Even police and military have to shoot Center of Mass, because a torso is MUCH MUCH easier to hit. Get it in your head that you need to STOP THE ATTACK. Whatever happens to the attacker isn't your problem or issue.
2. You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.
3. If you don't put him down fast, it will be hand to hand in about 2 seconds. Check out the FBI's 21 foot mad dash attack.
4. Pistols are only good if you practice HOW YOU WILL FIGHT!!!
5. My recommendation is a pistol caliber carbine; from Hi-Point, and get the extra mag kits and practice, practice, practice.
6. Find a Criminal Defense lawyer. Ask your lawyer for referrals. Spend a half- hour and go over how these things are handled in your jurisdiction, what to expect from the police, what you should say/ not say.
7. Hollow point ammo that hits a person will generally not leave the body. If you miss, I can tell you that a 357 magnum will go through one plaster wall, penetrate a 2nd; and fall onto the floor.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: 2cool
Find a Criminal Defense lawyer. Ask your lawyer for referrals. Spend a half- hour and go over how these things are handled in your jurisdiction, what to expect from the police, what you should say/ not say.


Best advice on the list.

 

[punisher]

What is the reality of the potential situation?

Are you going to have a "safe room" retreat, call the cops, and want enough firepower to defend it? Are you going full on LEO, and clearing each room of a potential threat yourself?

If I verify a hostile in my home, I grab Jr, retreat to the master bedroom, lock it, and cover both doors with a shotgun, while the wife has her .38, and call the LEOs. I am not a hero.

If I was going to go room by room to clear the dwelling of potentially armed intruders, then a good flashlight, and a pistol (9mm minimum) with hollowpoints is a favorite. After that, I would have myself examined to see why I made such a stupid decision to do a job the cops are trained (and paid) to do.

Oh attorneys, as mentioned previously.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: 2cool
Hi Merkava,
Here's a distillation of my research about SD situation.
1. Wound to stop is a fallacy. Even police and military have to shoot Center of Mass, because a torso is MUCH MUCH easier to hit. Get it in your head that you need to STOP THE ATTACK. Whatever happens to the attacker isn't your problem or issue.
2. You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.
3. If you don't put him down fast, it will be hand to hand in about 2 seconds. Check out the FBI's 21 foot mad dash attack.
4. Pistols are only good if you practice HOW YOU WILL FIGHT!!!
5. My recommendation is a pistol caliber carbine; from Hi-Point, and get the extra mag kits and practice, practice, practice.
6. Find a Criminal Defense lawyer. Ask your lawyer for referrals. Spend a half- hour and go over how these things are handled in your jurisdiction, what to expect from the police, what you should say/ not say.
7. Hollow point ammo that hits a person will generally not leave the body. If you miss, I can tell you that a 357 magnum will go through one plaster wall, penetrate a 2nd; and fall onto the floor.


All of this is great advice, although I would not recommend the Hi Point. I would recommend someone look for something like a Marlin Camp 9, AR 15 in 9mm, or Kel Tec Sub 2000. All take hi cap mags that are high quality and the designs are reliable and proven.

 

[dareo]

The carbine Hi Point is decent. Sure you can get better guns for more money, but i am happy with the small price invested in one. Kel-Tecs are cool but very hard to find for a reasonable price. AR-15 9mm is also so much $$$.

 

[2cool]

Mr Dareo,
You are, I think, half correct. You can spend more money, but it won't buy you a better gun. They offer a lifetime no questions warranty.
I was cleaning mine, and decided to lube the firing pin a little. Then, it didn't look right, so I added a bit more. NOT GOOD. I put 30 rounds through it, having 6 FTF light strikes. Most unusual. Got it home, broke it down to see what I'd done wrong. It still shot 5 of 6 rounds with a bent firing pin! Called HP factory. Asked for a firing pin, they asked if I'd like a spring for it, I said sure. When I asked how much, they said NO CHARGE. So they're sending me the parts and paying the postage. Replaced the firing pin and ran 100 rounds only stopping to load mags. Fun gun, accurate and tough.

 

[hatt]

Originally Posted By: 2cool
Mr Dareo,
You are, I think, half correct. You can spend more money, but it won't buy you a better gun. They offer a lifetime no questions warranty.
I was cleaning mine, and decided to lube the firing pin a little. Then, it didn't look right, so I added a bit more. NOT GOOD. I put 30 rounds through it, having 6 FTF light strikes. Most unusual. Got it home, broke it down to see what I'd done wrong. It still shot 5 of 6 rounds with a bent firing pin! Called HP factory. Asked for a firing pin, they asked if I'd like a spring for it, I said sure. When I asked how much, they said NO CHARGE. So they're sending me the parts and paying the postage. Replaced the firing pin and ran 100 rounds only stopping to load mags. Fun gun, accurate and tough.
Are you saying too much lube bent the firing pin or it was already bent? Either way a firing pin shouldn't be something you have to worry about unless you're shooting thousands of rounds. Your story certainly isn't a 'look how awesome HPs are" story.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: hatt
Are you saying too much lube bent the firing pin or it was already bent? Either way a firing pin shouldn't be something you have to worry about unless you're shooting thousands of rounds.

I think I would be a bit uneasy using it as a SD firearm until I found the reason it was bent.
Not saying you are not doing that.

 

[hatt]

It seems bent pins are par for the course with HP carbines. Firing pin is apparently also used to eject case. And they're made of soft pot metal. Should have got them to send you a bag of pins.

 

[Itonlysmokesalit]

Well this made my day, I've been away from bitog for a while and I've missed the party. Bill, Robenstein, and others have given you the information and resorces you need. I honestly can't believe there's still people out there who parrot the myth that birdshot is a good idea, and somehow defys physics. Along with not having to aim a shotgun. Kinda makes you wonder but I digress. Also use proven ammunition (hst,gold dot) stay away from the fragmenting or other wise shallow penetrating pistol rounds. I've had good experiences with the blackhills 5.56 77tmk, 5.56 77gr tap t2 (the 5.56 Superformance seems similar someone would have to verify) and the blackhills 5.56 50gr tsx. However I agree as other have already stated, your mentality needs to change drastically before going further.

 

[AMC]

This is my current home defense weapon -- a Klein #3248 sleever bar. I got half a mind to just leave it at that. You guys have dang near talked me out of ever owning a gun. WAY too much liability involved. [/quote]

PM Me. I will give you sound advice one whatever firearms/self defense topics you wish to discuss, without scaring you off or trying to discourage you.

Although many of the posters here have given you very sound advice, this thread has become a serious bullying piece and lost most of its value.

 

[Itonlysmokesalit]

To the contrary. Sarcasm aside I see no bullying just responsible, informed, gun owners impressing upon the op the reality of the situation. An interesting side note is how much bad advice comes out of the woodwork when discussions like this start.

 

[hatt]

If you're being "bullied" on BITOG I really don't think guns are going to be something you should get into. It just doesn't get any tamer than here. Merk was most likely just trolling anyhow.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
These track houses we got here are only about 20 feet apart side by side if that. If a guy comes into my house and I shoot the guy, I don't want the bullet going through him and into my neighbor's house. What ammunition size would you guys recommend ?


M4 type carbine. Load it with 40gr VMAX. This is NOT MY FIRST CHOICE for shooting anything but a prarie-dog, but you are 100% guaranteed that it's not going to cause collateral damage if it hits ANYTHING of any real substance (1/4" ply-wood or more). Be prepared to dump the mag if you aren't taking unobstructed frontal shots into the thoracic cavity...but if you DO take a shot like that, the results are going to be very dramatic and effective.

*My above is assuming paper thin walls/mobile home park. If you have sheetrock and brick, I'd maybe go ahead and load Gold Dot .223, but if you want to play it super safe, the polymer tipped "VMAX" type .225/5.56 rounds are a very safe bet.

 

[ironman_gq]

Get a 9mm and load it with frangible rounds. Won't penetrate anything "hard" but will make a mess in a soft target if it comes down to it.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: ironman_gq
Get a 9mm and load it with frangible rounds. Won't penetrate anything "hard" but will make a mess in a soft target if it comes down to it.


Mess yes....lethal mess....not reliably. And if you are going to defend yourself, then you will want to make sure the round you fire is efficient at shutting down threats. Frangible rounds simply do not penetrate far enough.

 

[bubbatime]

Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Frangible rounds simply do not penetrate far enough.


Frangible rounds will over penetrate on tissue. They act as a FMJ round. They only become frangible when they hit something hard, like metal. They should not be used for defensive purposes. They are for training, while shooting steel.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Frangible rounds simply do not penetrate far enough.


Frangible rounds will over penetrate on tissue. They act as a FMJ round. They only become frangible when they hit something hard, like metal. They should not be used for defensive purposes. They are for training, while shooting steel.


Glaser and Magsafe are classified as frangible rounds also, and are atrocious for self defense.

 

[SilverC6]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
The buckshot is very difficult for a surgeon to remove. I want to shoot the guy in the leg with one bullet that will stay in his leg. I just want to immobilize the person and not cause any fatal injuries. Can we forget about the shotgun ?


Merk, you need a hollow point that's going to open up and dump all its energy and not over penetrate.

Most premium hollow points today will perform this way.

But try Hornady Critical Defense 38 special in the 110 gr. or the 90 gr. lite version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YA1SNpuh1ns

There are also 9 mm versions of this ammo if you are leaning that way.

And you might want to practice on those leg shots. They can be tricky.

 

[Ws6]

Originally Posted By: bubbatime
Originally Posted By: Robenstein
Frangible rounds simply do not penetrate far enough.


Frangible rounds will over penetrate on tissue. They act as a FMJ round. They only become frangible when they hit something hard, like metal. They should not be used for defensive purposes. They are for training, while shooting steel.


I think he meant something like Glasers or some other 80's nonsense. However, if he meant shoot-house frangible stuff, yeah. I've seen 5.56 RRLP go through multiple car doors, lol! 9mm Frangible = FMJ as you stated on peoples.