Bike Ticket: Ran Stop Sign

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You stopped but not in the right place. You have to stop at the stop bar, where you can better see if any traffic is coming before commencing the RTOR.

Are these wide shoulders designated bike lanes? If there's not a designated bike lane it's not legal to pass cars while riding at the shoulder / curb. Though no ticket was issued for that.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: Rat407
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Originally Posted By: rideahorse
Well. If you bicyclers want to share the road you need to use the road as just like all other vehicles have too.
This.

As a cyclist, the minority that does not respect the rules of the road gives us a bad name.
Agree, Us cyclist get enough flack from motorist due to those that do not follow the ROTR. My biggest fear is getting hit because of someone texting and not paying attention. It is bad enough that we are hard to be seen. I wear bright colors and have bright flashing LED's. I look like a circus clown on the road.

I must say, what an interesting series of responses!

RAH: Rather than "driving" by, you should re-read the detailed account I posted. I did stop. All previous "rt turn only" drivers in this situation have moved on within seconds. I know because I've been there. Further, this particular road has wide shoulders to the right of the solid, white line. That's where I ride. Legally. In the state of Tx., driving an auto on the shoulder for any distance is a ticketable offense.

I'm in the habit of yielding to cars when bicycling? Why? Because they're bigger and odds are that I'll lose in any accident involving them & me. On the other hand, there are PLENTY of bicycle nazis in this area who gang together, in mass rides, deliberately during rush hour, to block traffic. I'm not one of them. I'm not riding to make a "statement", I'm riding to stay in shape and because I enjoy it.

UGP: See above.

R407: "Us cyclist?" Who is that?






What part on Centex are you in? Haven't thought about that term in a long time. Central Tx when I was growing up was always referred to as "Centex" just like DFW is "The Metroplex".
 
Update:

Made some road measurements today. I have to travel down this road, first a descent, then a long ascent to arrive at the intersection where the ticket was issued. The shape looks like an enlongated U, stretched out.

400' uphill from the flat bottom of the middle of the "U", the slope is 5.7° up. This is always a bear for me on the road bike. At 500', it begins to decrease to 3.4°. 883' up, the slope is still positive at 2°. The slope gradually decreases down to 0.5°, then rises back up to 1°.

Total uphill distance traveled is about 400yrds. I'm panting pretty hard by then and it's a rude warm-up. The roadway I mostly ride on is actually easier....until I get to the really, long steep pitch that's just a major thigh burner.

Back to the "warm up road" described above...

I called a friend of mine who's a lawyer, and laid out my story. First, he said requesting a jury trial is a mistake as they'll resent having to be there in the first place. Second, a judge sees time-waster cases day in and day out. It's his job. Further, he tends to dismiss these regularly to save time.

Third, he said don't count on the deputy to answer truthfully! He's liable to say anything to save face since I didn't fold and pay the fine.

Fourth, he asked if the deputy was over the stop line. And it sounded to him like the deputy was "blocking the rt. turn lane." He could have been doing anything, he said.

I told him I did stop, waiting on the deputy to proceed on. No rt. turn blinker. He was busy doing something, so I went around him. Simple as that.

My above measurements, along with some photos, will prove there's no way I could blow through an intersection after steadily climbing uphill for 400yrds. That's a bit shy of a qtr. of a mile.

I'm going to chat with a few other lawyers I know. Might also be interesting to sit in on some of these cases, if allowed. I sat in on several formal appraisal dispute hearings before my own to get a feel for what goes on, what works and what doesn't. It was very educational

Stay tuned........
 
This must be your first encounter with our judicial system, correct? You seem to have the presumption that our court system is about right vs. wrong, and that the truth will prevail.

As Shannow repeats often, "your system must be broken". It's true. The courtroom is often a three ring circus, mostly about procedures and who can one-up the other. You're interested in proving yourself right. Your first lawyer interview already hinted how this will go. A judge will go into this annoyed because you are wasting the court's time. The police officer will do whatever it takes to guarantee that any "evidence" you present will not be enough to over ride his presentation.

My opinion comes from doing jury duty several times and also my wife's attempt to overturn a ticket as the middle car in a rear end 3 car accident. We had overwhelming evidence proving my wife stopped first without hitting the front car, and that the 3rd. driver going 40+mph that plowed into her 5 seconds later caused my wife's car to collide with the first. She lost. The "trial" went down hill when the judge started out saying she had a terrible tooth ache and wanted to get this over ASAP.

It should be a good learning experience, but I predict that you will come out having lesser respect for our judicial system. I also believe that some kind of plea bargain will be offered. Pay $$$ and no points or record.

Keep us posted.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Update:

[blah, blah, blah ...]

Stay tuned........



All very interesting details ... for you, but it all comes down to the big issue: you did not have the patience to wait behind the cop for the light to change and received a ticket.

You will lose in court.

Pay the fine and move on.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Update:

Made some road measurements today. I have to travel down this road, first a descent, then a long ascent to arrive at the intersection where the ticket was issued. The shape looks like an enlongated U, stretched out.

400' uphill from the flat bottom of the middle of the "U", the slope is 5.7° up. This is always a bear for me on the road bike. At 500', it begins to decrease to 3.4°. 883' up, the slope is still positive at 2°. The slope gradually decreases down to 0.5°, then rises back up to 1°.

Total uphill distance traveled is about 400yrds. I'm panting pretty hard by then and it's a rude warm-up. The roadway I mostly ride on is actually easier....until I get to the really, long steep pitch that's just a major thigh burner.

Back to the "warm up road" described above...

I called a friend of mine who's a lawyer, and laid out my story. First, he said requesting a jury trial is a mistake as they'll resent having to be there in the first place. Second, a judge sees time-waster cases day in and day out. It's his job. Further, he tends to dismiss these regularly to save time.

Third, he said don't count on the deputy to answer truthfully! He's liable to say anything to save face since I didn't fold and pay the fine.

Fourth, he asked if the deputy was over the stop line. And it sounded to him like the deputy was "blocking the rt. turn lane." He could have been doing anything, he said.

I told him I did stop, waiting on the deputy to proceed on. No rt. turn blinker. He was busy doing something, so I went around him. Simple as that.

My above measurements, along with some photos, will prove there's no way I could blow through an intersection after steadily climbing uphill for 400yrds. That's a bit shy of a qtr. of a mile.

I'm going to chat with a few other lawyers I know. Might also be interesting to sit in on some of these cases, if allowed. I sat in on several formal appraisal dispute hearings before my own to get a feel for what goes on, what works and what doesn't. It was very educational

Stay tuned........



You must have a lot of free time to devote so much effort to this. Although, it seems like you enjoy the learning process and are highly convinced of your innocence. Neither the DA, the judge, deputy, or the jury will be happy with you for following this route, and my guess is that if you don't plea to something lesser, those factors are going to cause you to lose. And yes, the deputy is going to present a very different version and you're in a law and order state. I'd be proactive in pleaing this out ASAP and getting on with life. If you do end going clear to trial, hire representation, which will cost more than the ticket. I can be like this too, going to extraordinary lengths based on principle and the belief I'm right. Sometimes it pays off, usually not.
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
This must be your first encounter with our judicial system, correct? You seem to have the presumption that our court system is about right vs. wrong, and that the truth will prevail.

As Shannow repeats often, "your system must be broken". It's true. The courtroom is often a three ring circus, mostly about procedures and who can one-up the other. You're interested in proving yourself right. Your first lawyer interview already hinted how this will go. A judge will go into this annoyed because you are wasting the court's time. The police officer will do whatever it takes to guarantee that any "evidence" you present will not be enough to over ride his presentation.

My opinion comes from doing jury duty several times and also my wife's attempt to overturn a ticket as the middle car in a rear end 3 car accident. We had overwhelming evidence proving my wife stopped first without hitting the front car, and that the 3rd. driver going 40+mph that plowed into her 5 seconds later caused my wife's car to collide with the first. She lost. The "trial" went down hill when the judge started out saying she had a terrible tooth ache and wanted to get this over ASAP.

It should be a good learning experience, but I predict that you will come out having lesser respect for our judicial system. I also believe that some kind of plea bargain will be offered. Pay $$$ and no points or record.

Keep us posted.


At 55, no it isn't my first encounter. As previously stated, it's rare to even get a warning, much less a ticket. It may indeed be a three-ring circus. If ticketed while driving a car, that's one thing. This is a $240 ticket while "footing" my way up to make a right turn. I do intend on challenging the other sides assertions. After all, they have the burden of proof. All I have to do is instill doubt.

If the judge is annoyed, it should be at the prosecuter. He could have easily pleaded this out or dismissed it outright and it would be over. He didn't do that though. His options were $240 or go to trial. Period. So, what do I have to lose?

This isn't a MVA case. However, I may still lose, have to plead to a lower charge, and pay. OK. So be it. But I won't be later thinking "woulda, coulda, shoulda".

It already has been a learning experience. This won't ever happen again.
 
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Update:[blah, blah, blah ...Stay tuned........
All very interesting details ... for you, but it all comes down to the big issue: you did not have the patience to wait behind the cop for the light to change and received a ticket. You will lose in court. Pay the fine and move on.

Not at all interesting..to you. If so bored, why reply? Others are interested and want updates. They've said so. You can bugger off...

Rt turn on red is legal in Tx. I was patient and did wait. You don't know I'll lose either.
 
Originally Posted By: cjcride
The title states Stop sign but the thread speaks of a Traffic light.
THAT is an excellent point!

Thank you!
 
Originally Posted By: dlayman
You must have a lot of free time to devote so much effort to this. Although, it seems like you enjoy the learning process and are highly convinced of your innocence. Neither the DA, the judge, deputy, or the jury will be happy with you for following this route, and my guess is that if you don't plea to something lesser, those factors are going to cause you to lose. And yes, the deputy is going to present a very different version and you're in a law and order state. I'd be proactive in pleaing this out ASAP and getting on with life. If you do end going clear to trial, hire representation, which will cost more than the ticket. I can be like this too, going to extraordinary lengths based on principle and the belief I'm right. Sometimes it pays off, usually not.

Well, it is a learning experience. I am a man who will admit to his mistakes. I won't ever do this again. Period. With that said, $240 is ridiculous and excessive. I was "walking" a bicycle while dismounted from the seat, not in a speeding auto blowing through a stop sign (that was actually a major 3-way intersection controlled by traffic lights), yet I'm charged with the same offense and so far, the details don't appear to matter.

The thought has popped in my mind that this deputy hates bicycle riders, he blocked the rt turn only lane by not moving and waited to see what I would do. Why else would a busy deputy, in a rt. turn only lane, sit & wait for a light, with light traffic? Who does that? Most here don't even bother to completely stop, nor wait: Instead they pull out in front of people. Travis County is a "progressive", political hot bed of politics, militant groups of all types, social justice warriors and bicycle fanatics who have & will block traffic, at rush hour,en masse, and demand their own bicycle lanes, bridges, & color-coded paths. TC is very, very deep blue & EVERYTHING is political. He may have had one-to-many encounters with the bike nazis and I just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Texas may be a law & order state but TC is "Goofy Town". Search that.

They may regularly see idiots, goofballs, & fools in their court but I'm not one of them. I intend on being properly prepared, having my statement written down and keeping it to five minutes max. Just like a Toastmaster speech. The rarer they find this approach, the better. It's worked every time I go to a formal hearing to protest my property tax appraisal. There I've watched some act like idiots & fools, yelling at the board, holding up their phones with itty-bitty photos on them, complaining, moaning, crying, cussing....so my approach was to do none of that, treat them with respect, not waste their time, and base my presentation on facts. Result? It's worked. Several times.

I am interested in admiting to a lesser charge, like "jaywalking" which isn't a moving violation, nor will show on my record. Nor am I "100% dismissal or bust". However, they are. (TC again, remember?) I do plan on going to another pre-trial hearing soon when I've finished.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver

I am interested in admiting to a lesser charge, like "jaywalking" which isn't a moving violation, nor will show on my record. Nor am I "100% dismissal or bust". However, they are. (TC again, remember?) I do plan on going to another pre-trial hearing soon when I've finished.


If you were walking your bike, then you were walking, not operating a "vehicle." It should be no different than if you were pushing a baby stroller or walking your dog on a leash. Worst case was that you were pushing a manual scooter. Hopefully, sanity will prevail here. It doesn't appear that LEO there have any regard for pedestrians or bicyclists.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Update:[blah, blah, blah ...Stay tuned........
All very interesting details ... for you, but it all comes down to the big issue: you did not have the patience to wait behind the cop for the light to change and received a ticket. You will lose in court. Pay the fine and move on.

Not at all interesting..to you. If so bored, why reply? Others are interested and want updates. They've said so. You can bugger off...

Rt turn on red is legal in Tx. I was patient and did wait. You don't know I'll lose either.


Well, I guess I somehow got the wrong impression when I read what you wrote in your very first post:

Originally Posted By: sleddriver


By now I'm surprised the red light hasn't greened.

Growing impatient, I begin to move past him on the right side. I'm not able to pedal while next to his vehicle as there isn't enough space between the car and the curb. So I'm off the saddle, left foot on the pedal, right foot on the ground, moving slowly forward. I move past him, rt foot on pedal, move to the saddle and immediately turn right onto the shoulder, well to the right of the white line.

I go about 20'. He immediately turns on his siren, pulls onto the shoulder, lights a flashing, exits his vehicle, comes up to me and is just indignant. YOU DIDN'T SEE THAT RED LIGHT? WHY DIDN'T YOU STOP?


Try changing your story in court and it won't go well ...

And please excuse me if I decline your invitation to "bugger off."

crackmeup2.gif
 
Quote:
"Growing impatient, I begin to move past him on the right side. I'm not able to pedal while next to his vehicle as there isn't enough space between the car and the curb. So I'm off the saddle, left foot on the pedal, right foot on the ground, moving slowly forward. I move past him, rt foot on pedal, move to the saddle and immediately turn right onto the shoulder, well to the right of the white line."

The burden of proof is the officer's testimony that he was sitting in his car in the right turn lane, the light was red, and you passed him on the right and made a right turn on red without stopping.

Case closed. Nothing else you say matters. Those bicycle regulations you linked states that a bicyclist has to operate just like a vehicle, period. It doesn't matter if the officer appeared indignant. It doesn't matter that he was sitting there with no turn signal on. It doesn't matter that you "say" you stopped behind him, especially if he did not see that (the tree falling in the forest with no witness thing). It doesn't matter that you were standing on the left pedal and scootering yourself along, then went both pedals and proceeded through the red light. It doesn't matter if you were going 10mph or 0.5 mph.

You may think all this matters, based on principle, but the court doesn't care about principles. All of your measurements and explanations(so far) mean nothing in court.
I think you will get fried, very quickly. What defense will you have, beyond "the principle of it"? And, if it does go all the way to court, they are going to want to collect as much money as possible. Plea bargaining happens before court, not during it.

I want to support you, but I can't imagine anything good happening by trying to defend your way out of this. Try, for just one moment, to step out of your thought pattern and into the minds/perspective of the court. If anything, I can imagine the officer saying "as he entered my blind spot, so close to my car, if I had started moving and turned, I may have injured him".
 
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
Quote:
"Growing impatient, I begin to move past him on the right side. I'm not able to pedal while next to his vehicle as there isn't enough space between the car and the curb. So I'm off the saddle, left foot on the pedal, right foot on the ground, moving slowly forward. I move past him, rt foot on pedal, move to the saddle and immediately turn right onto the shoulder, well to the right of the white line."

The burden of proof is the officer's testimony that he was sitting in his car in the right turn lane, the light was red, and you passed him on the right and made a right turn on red without stopping.

Case closed. Nothing else you say matters. Those bicycle regulations you linked states that a bicyclist has to operate just like a vehicle, period. It doesn't matter if the officer appeared indignant. It doesn't matter that he was sitting there with no turn signal on. It doesn't matter that you "say" you stopped behind him, especially if he did not see that (the tree falling in the forest with no witness thing). It doesn't matter that you were standing on the left pedal and scootering yourself along, then went both pedals and proceeded through the red light. It doesn't matter if you were going 10mph or 0.5 mph.

You may think all this matters, based on principle, but the court doesn't care about principles. All of your measurements and explanations(so far) mean nothing in court.
I think you will get fried, very quickly. None of your explanations, so far, will stand up in court. What defense will you have, beyond "the principle of it"? And, if it does go all the way to court, they are going to want to collect as much money as possible. Plea bargaining happens before court, not during it.

I want to support you, but I can't imagine anything good happening by trying to defend your way out of this. Try, for just one moment, to step our of your thought pattern and into the minds/perspective of the court. If anything, I can imagine the officer saying "as he entered my blind spot, so close to my car, if I had started moving and turned, I may have injured him".


I think you are probably pretty accurate.

This whole process seems so convoluted. Pre-trial hearings and everything. The last time I got a ticket I pleaded not guilty. On the trial date, I showed up at the magistrate's office. The officer and several other people whom he had ticketed were sitting in a waiting area. One by one he met with each of us and said he was willing to reduce the charge to a no points violation in return for a guilty plea. Good enough for me. I signed a paper and the whole thing was done in five minutes. This were an incident where I was being passed on a four lane divided highway, and the cop pulled me over and let the other guy that was passing me go. I was going seven mph over the limit and he said I was fifteen over. It was clear to me that his radar caught the other car's speed and he assigned it to me. I, however, DID commit a violation, although his charge was inaccurate. If I had gone to court and made that claim, I am pretty sure I would have lost. Since I technically was speeding I felt OK with paying a fine and getting no points and getting it over with quickly.
 
I don't agree with many of your points. However, I grow increasingly weary arguing. You are rather emphatic, aren't you?

Tough crowd here on BITOG. Lots of cross-country mind-readers, speculation and conjecture. Plenty of B&W thinking to boot. Yet no one's ID'd themselves as a member of a court, nor a lawyer. Perhaps they're not bicycle riders and ignore this forum.

Time will tell.
 
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
I don't agree with many of your points. However, I grow increasingly weary arguing. You are rather emphatic, aren't you?

Tough crowd here on BITOG. Lots of cross-country mind-readers, speculation and conjecture. Plenty of B&W thinking to boot. Yet no one's ID'd themselves as a member of a court, nor a lawyer. Perhaps they're not bicycle riders and ignore this forum.

Time will tell.



I think most people are trying to help, just have a lot of differing opinions. There might be one or two that think you're trying to get away with a violation based on a technicality. Even at that, that's your legal right, and you have every right to challenge the charges however you see fit. I'm just stunned that the DA won't plead this and take the money for a lesser charge with no points. They're spending more than they have a chance of collecting. They may be playing chicken with you, hoping you'll change your plea to guilty and then offer you a plea at the last minute. At least here in PA they make it very easy to plea bargain, and unless a person behaved like a jerk with the officer, it is almost always proactively offered. The process in Texas seems extremely overdone, with all this pre-trial stuff. Most people wouldn't have the time to go to all of that and probably just accept the ticket, maybe that's why they make it so complicated.
 
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