What temperature is too hot for conventional oil?

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Piston aircraft engines (they run dino), the top of green arc is 240F, above that is red...
https://www.google.com.br/search?sclient=tablet-gws&safe=active&site=&source=hp&q=cessna+oil+temperature+gauge&oq=Cessna+oil+&gs_l=tablet-gws.1.1.0i19l3.4837.8821.0.10459.12.9.0.3.3.0.220.1587.0j8j1.9.0....0...1c.1j4.64.tablet-gws..0.11.1465.0..0j35i39j0i67j0i22i30.ITUQUVqLbBk#imgrc=1ByypjjuPudhsM%3A7
 
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Delo 400 15W-40 is Iso-Syn (highly refined dino) and it is reliable as some full synthetics at heat management. I know we use it in haying and grain production where radiators are very likely to get partially clogged and engine temps get to 220* regularly. So oil temps must be 25*~30* higher...

No issues with oil break-down in field tractors or the harvestors ...
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Delo 400 is 238*c or 460*f will there be any difference Delo data sheet. So many misconceptions these days.


Yes Delo 400 15W-40 has a Flash Point of 238 C / 460 F

Then you have the Delo Monogrades
SAE 30 FP = 236 C / 457 F
SAE 40 FP = 250 C / 482 F
Delo Monogrades

For comparison M1 15W-50 has a FP = 232 C / 450 F

Nothing wrong with Delo and it's Grp II+ ISOSYN technology
 
Originally Posted By: Pontual
Piston aircraft engines (they run dino), the top of green arc is 240F, above that is red...
https://www.google.com.br/search?sclient=tablet-gws&safe=active&site=&source=hp&q=cessna+oil+temperature+gauge&oq=Cessna+oil+&gs_l=tablet-gws.1.1.0i19l3.4837.8821.0.10459.12.9.0.3.3.0.220.1587.0j8j1.9.0....0...1c.1j4.64.tablet-gws..0.11.1465.0..0j35i39j0i67j0i22i30.ITUQUVqLbBk#imgrc=1ByypjjuPudhsM%3A7


I like those cessna style gauges. do they exist in °C and Bar (or atm) and work on 12v?
 
For decades, the Big rigs you have in the US have run on nothing but bulk 15w40 conventional oils, and these clock up over a million miles easily, sure some synthetics have very high flas points but a quality conventional will do just fine in 99% of cases
 
In an attempt to obtain some facts on this (opinions are always welcome), I have sent the same question to Kendall, Chevron, and Mobil. Kendall (as they have in the past) was the first to respond. I will post the others as they reply.

Note that I simply replied to a previous mail I had sent them, thus the reason for the strange subject line (I redacted my e-mail address for obvious reasons).



From: RSC:Lubricants [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 16:20
To:
Subject: RE: RE: Kendall GT-1R Diesel Motor Oil with Liquid TitaniumR versus Kendall Super-D XAR Diesel Engine Oil

2015_PSD,

When it comes to the operating temperature ranges, it is best to stay 100°F below the flash point as a rule of thumb. All three of the products below will have flash points around 430°F.

The bigger issue when operating at elevated temperatures is that the useable life of the oil is reduced. Generally speaking, once an oil is heated up past 160°F the rate of oxidation doubles for every 10 degree increase in temperature. These engine oils are designed to handle very hot temperatures for short periods of time, but when exposed to these high temperatures for extended periods of time the life of the lubricant is reduced at an accelerated rate. Synthetic lubricants will be better served to handle these high temperatures, as they have more oxidation stability.

The GT-1 Diesel Engine Oil 15w-40, Super-D XA 15w-40, and Guardol ECT 15w-40 are all synthetic blends and can handle these elevated temperatures, but the for how long will need to be determined by oil analysis. A better option for you if you are expecting to see these elevated temperatures more frequently would be our Triton ECT Full Synthetic 5w-40 or SHP Diesel Full Synthetic 5w-40, which as full synthetics will oxidize less quickly.


Thank you!
Grant Loveall
Lubricants Technical Services – Product Specialist
________________________________________
877.445.9198









From:
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 2:20 PM
To: RSC:Lubricants
Subject: [EXTERNAL]RE: Kendall GT-1R Diesel Motor Oil with Liquid TitaniumR versus Kendall Super-D XAR Diesel Engine Oil

Mike,

Can you tell me what the maximum operating temperature would be for the oils listed below? I realize there is a flashpoint temperature on the PDS, but I am wondering how hot the oil can be before it begins to breakdown and lose effectiveness/cause varnish and sludge. Case in point, I had some sustained oil temperatures in my Ford F-250 Powerstroke 6.7L that were 230°F to 249°F with ambient air temperatures of 115°F. Had I been towing, I am going to assume, I would see temperatures in the 260°F range. I am attempting to make a decision between full synthetic and synthetic blend oil for this application/operating conditions and would appreciate your advice.

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.



From: RSC:Lubricants [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, April 25, 2016 08:05
To:
Subject: RE: Kendall GT-1R Diesel Motor Oil with Liquid TitaniumR versus Kendall Super-D XAR Diesel Engine Oil

Hello 2015_PSD,

Thank you for contacting Phillips 66 Lubricants, and for your interest in our products.

Kendall, GT-1® Diesel Motor Oil with Liquid Titanium®
Kendall, Super-D XA® with Liquid Titanium®
Family of Brands, Guardol ECT® Diesel Engine Oil with Liquid Titanium®

There is no difference in the formulation of all three of these products, you may see very minor differences on the technical data sheets as the values reported on these documents are typical values and will vary slightly over time. The three different names are for reasons of marketing and brand recognition in different regions of the USA as well as export markets.

This would be our top recommendation for your 2015 Ford F-250 Powerstroke Diesel. Ford is calling for an API CJ-4 quality product in either a 10W-30 (above 0°F) or 15W-40 (above 20°F). The Kendall, GT-1® Diesel Motor Oil with Liquid Titanium® is only available in a 15W-40, the other two products are available in both 10W-30 and 15W-40.

Please let me know If I can be of any further assistance.

Thank you!
Mike Beauvais
Lubricants Technical Services – Product Specialist
________________________________________
877.445.9198



From:
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2016 1:36 PM
To: RSC:Lubricants
Subject: [EXTERNAL]Kendall GT-1R Diesel Motor Oil with Liquid TitaniumR versus Kendall Super-D XAR Diesel Engine Oil

Can you tell me the differences between these two oils? They seem to be very similar. I plan to use this in a 2015 Ford F-250 with a 6.7L Powerstroke Diesel engine.

Thank you in advance.

 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
How so? 2x0=0, 20x0= 0x40=0
Care to elaborate?
 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
How so? 2x0=0, 20x0= 0x40=0


What? For oxidation? In the real world, the oxidation rate will not be zero. Kendall must know their product, and if they say that for every 10F above 160F, the oxidation rate doubles, I believe them.
 
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I missed the "please elaborate" request.

First we have to know the oxidation rate @ 160F of the non synthetic and the synthetic oil it is being compared to.
Perhaps @ 160F, there is no difference, or maybe the conventional is superior to the synthetic.

At 160F, it may take weeks maybe months before one engine oil is oxidated (pun intentional) beyond service and the other is still in grade.
The object of this topic thread is to determine the difference in oxidation rate between synthetic and conventional engine oil.
How one line in a letter can establish that one is better than the other with a normal oci, is beyond comprehension.

Garak, the burden of proof is for you to establish.
 
The 6.7 has an IOLM that takes all of this information into account, using CJ-4. If you are seeing extended times of the upper range of oil temp then the IOLM will decrease OCI. I have a 6.7 and UOA at the time the IOLM goes to "change oil now" and every sample has came back without issue, if fact I could extend the interval.

The point being is the IOLM has a safety factor built into it, if one wishes to spend X dollars on a synthetic and follow the IOLM, or even shorten the interval, thats entirely a decision between you and your wallet as the engine doesn't care, unless a UOA shows otherwise.

All of the information Kendall provided is valuable, but you need to UOA and determine if you are reaching any of the thresholds in oxidation and proceed from there, my guess is you're not even close as the oil temps you've reported aren't uncommon in the latest offering of diesels.
 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Garak, the burden of proof is for you to establish.

How is it incumbent upon me to prove what Kendall stated? Have I been elected to be their CEO or marketing director without my knowledge?
 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
How one line in a letter can establish that one is better than the other with a normal oci, is beyond comprehension.
I am going to **assume** that Kendall has performed some testing to know this otherwise, but I did not take it the way that you did (seemingly an absolute), I took it as a recommendation, in particular this line:

Synthetic lubricants will be better served to handle these high temperatures, as they have more oxidation stability.

It will be interesting to see if Chevron and Mobil state something similar or completely different.
 
Here is Chevron's response:


From: LubeTek Email2Case [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 11:53
To:
Subject: RE: Maximum Effective Operating Oil Temperature?

Thank you for your inquiry. However, we do not have any information on the maximum operating temperature range for our products. Both Delo products are designed to perform well within Ford's guidelines for normal combustion temperatures.

Regards,
Clay
Lubetek Engineer


--------------- Original Message ---------------
From:
Sent: 6/20/2016 12:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Maximum Effective Operating Oil Temperature?
Can you tell me what the maximum operating temperature would be for the oils listed below? I realize there is a flashpoint temperature on the PDS, but I am wondering how hot the oil can be before it begins to breakdown and lose effectiveness/cause varnish and sludge. Case in point, I had some sustained oil temperatures in my Ford F-250 Powerstroke 6.7L that were 230°F to 249°F with ambient air temperatures of 115°F. Had I been towing, I am going to assume, I would see temperatures in the 260°F range. I am attempting to make a decision between synthetic and conventional oil for this application/operating conditions and would appreciate your advice.

Oil #1 – Chevron Delo 400 LE 5W-40 (full synthetic)
Oil #2 – Chevron Delo 400 LE 15W-40 (conventional)

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.
 
160F is 71C, the moisture isn't get boiled off (but makes a slow vaporization) and the oils are starting to slowly oxidise even though it would take ages to get out of service spec, from oxidation thickening. Now, at 170F the oxidation doubles, at 180 quadruples, at 190 octuples, 200F is 16 times more than @ 160, at 210F it is 32 times quicker than at 160F, 220 is 64 times, 230F is 128 times and 240F gives 256 times quicker, finally at 250F you get 512 times quicker compared to the same oil at 160F, having a few hours time of engine oil life. Run it at water boiling point max, or you're shortening oil life giving that pretty oci of 5k miles or even less. Racing engines, cut oil life a lot. Now I'm talking of bulk oil temp,not instantaneius raise at ring pack, bearings and valve guides stem, or shut down soaking. That's another animal.
 
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My SAE40 mono-grade has a flash point of 265C not 260F, and it's a conventional.
Should I worry?

Garak; You agreed with Kendall's letter. Which synthetic vs my dino?
Or does the statement mean all synthetic oils vs all conventional engine oils?

Krykie!!
 
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Shell's response (just waiting for Mobil's):

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 13:19
To:
Subject: RE: Maximum Effective Operating Oil Temperature?

Hi,
Oil oxidation is a process that accelerates as temperature increases, so there is not a specific temperature to provide. Synthetic oils will provide the best resistance to varnish and oxidation resistance, so I’d expect Rotella T6 to keep your engine cleaner. I believe Ford also specifies using synthetic 5W-40 for severe conditions.

Regards,
Keith Perry
Shell Technical Information
(800) 237-8645 Option 3, 1
Email: [email protected]
Technical data sheets and MSDS may be found at: www.epc.shell.com

From:
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2016 12:14 PM
To: SLUBE shelltechnical-us SLUBE
Subject: Maximum Effective Operating Oil Temperature?

Can you tell me what the maximum operating temperature would be for the oils listed below? I realize there is a flashpoint temperature on the PDS, but I am wondering how hot the oil can be before it begins to breakdown and lose effectiveness/cause varnish and sludge. Case in point, I had some sustained oil temperatures in my Ford F-250 Powerstroke 6.7L that were 230°F to 249°F with ambient air temperatures of 115°F. Had I been towing, I am going to assume, I would see temperatures in the 260°F range. I am attempting to make a decision between synthetic and conventional oil for this application/operating conditions and would appreciate your advice.

Oil #1 – Rotella T6 5W-40 (full synthetic)
Oil #2 – Rotella Triple T 15W-40 (conventional)

Thanks in advance for your help and advice.
 
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