Lug centric vs hub centric
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Yeah, my Toyota 4 Runner had lug centric wheels. None of the neanderthals at tire shops could balance them.
The damage was caused by running it with a lose set of lugnuts. Not because it was lug centric and a hub cetric wheel.
I believe the only time the center bore on the wheel is truly important is when you do NOT have tapered lug nuts. If you have tapered lug nuts, it is okay as those wheels are lug piloted and the taper keeps the wheel where it should be.
I believe the only time the center bore on the wheel is truly important is when you do NOT have tapered lug nuts. If you have tapered lug nuts, it is okay as those wheels are lug piloted and the taper keeps the wheel where it should be.
While I'm sure its better to use centering rings to hub centre a wheel, I've never bothered and have never had a problem with wheels centering just using the lugs. None have ever moved either.
I can see in a truly hard rim damaging hit that having the center bore of the wheel as a back up to the clamping force of the lugs, would keep the wheel centered, but you've probably got a flat and damaged the rim at that point anyways.
I can see in a truly hard rim damaging hit that having the center bore of the wheel as a back up to the clamping force of the lugs, would keep the wheel centered, but you've probably got a flat and damaged the rim at that point anyways.
When I picked up some lug centric rims I researched this and decided (informally) that if my wheel rust-welds itself to the hub, it's good to go. So it's important to not have grease/ anti sieze on the back side, even though I really, really want to.
Otherwise it'll "squirm" and work the conical lugs loose, after which, disaster ensues.
I know of no vehicle manufacturer that doesn't use hub centering. The one exception is Toyota where a tire and wheel package can be applied to the vehicle AFTER the vehicle has left the assembly plant - and even then, I think many Toyota wheels are still hub centric.
Just before I retired, I had a conversation with some General Motors engineers from their tire and wheel group - and they reported they had secretly tighten up their hub fit on a couple of lines of vehicles and got a measurable improvement in balance warranty. They did it secretly in order to be sure it was the tighter fit that worked before they rolled it out across the board. They were afraid that they would bias the feedback if it was well known - plus, they had some resistance from folks who thought that a tighter fit = stuck wheels.
Just before I retired, I had a conversation with some General Motors engineers from their tire and wheel group - and they reported they had secretly tighten up their hub fit on a couple of lines of vehicles and got a measurable improvement in balance warranty. They did it secretly in order to be sure it was the tighter fit that worked before they rolled it out across the board. They were afraid that they would bias the feedback if it was well known - plus, they had some resistance from folks who thought that a tighter fit = stuck wheels.
A tire buster moron tossed the centering rings on two of my Borbet 15 by 7 upgrade Camry rims when mounting new tires and it took me a while to track down the shake. Tire Rack sold me some new rings,
and the problem was solved. The wheels were torqued by me to the factory spec of 78 pounds when I got home from the shop and they still did not center without the rings. The lugnuts, though, are the shoulder type so without the rings where they end up on the rotor is by chance. OEM Toyota alloys are hub centric, at least from 1995 to 2008, and don't need rings.
and the problem was solved. The wheels were torqued by me to the factory spec of 78 pounds when I got home from the shop and they still did not center without the rings. The lugnuts, though, are the shoulder type so without the rings where they end up on the rotor is by chance. OEM Toyota alloys are hub centric, at least from 1995 to 2008, and don't need rings.
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Originally Posted By: HerrStig
A tire buster moron tossed the centering rings on two of my Borbet 15 by 7 upgrade Camry rims when mounting new tires and it took me a while to track down the shake. Tire Rack sold me some new rings,
and the problem was solved. The wheels were torqued by me to the factory spec of 78 pounds when I got home from the shop and they still did not center without the rings. The lugnuts, though, are the shoulder type so without the rings where they end up on the rotor is by chance. OEM Toyota alloys are hub centric, at least from 1995 to 2008, and don't need rings.
This is reminder to me to "inspect" the rings every time the rims are rotated.
A tire buster moron tossed the centering rings on two of my Borbet 15 by 7 upgrade Camry rims when mounting new tires and it took me a while to track down the shake. Tire Rack sold me some new rings,
and the problem was solved. The wheels were torqued by me to the factory spec of 78 pounds when I got home from the shop and they still did not center without the rings. The lugnuts, though, are the shoulder type so without the rings where they end up on the rotor is by chance. OEM Toyota alloys are hub centric, at least from 1995 to 2008, and don't need rings.
This is reminder to me to "inspect" the rings every time the rims are rotated.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I know of no vehicle manufacturer that doesn't use hub centering.
A true hub-centric wheel uses lug nuts with a flat flange that clamps against the rim. Heavy and medium duty trucks use hub-centric wheels.
Wheels using conical lug nuts are lug-centered, in other words, most car wheels are lug-centered. If they were not lug-centered, the lug nuts would not be able to properly clamp the rim on to the hub. So I have to disagree with CapriRacer.
My Sierra rims use conical lug nuts and also the rim centre hole fits snugly on to the hub, so perhaps this is an instance of a wheel being both hub-centric and lug-centric. But I still stand by my statement that any wheel using conical lug nuts is lug-centered.
I know of no vehicle manufacturer that doesn't use hub centering.
A true hub-centric wheel uses lug nuts with a flat flange that clamps against the rim. Heavy and medium duty trucks use hub-centric wheels.
Wheels using conical lug nuts are lug-centered, in other words, most car wheels are lug-centered. If they were not lug-centered, the lug nuts would not be able to properly clamp the rim on to the hub. So I have to disagree with CapriRacer.
My Sierra rims use conical lug nuts and also the rim centre hole fits snugly on to the hub, so perhaps this is an instance of a wheel being both hub-centric and lug-centric. But I still stand by my statement that any wheel using conical lug nuts is lug-centered.
Originally Posted By: George7941
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I know of no vehicle manufacturer that doesn't use hub centering.
A true hub-centric wheel uses lug nuts with a flat flange that clamps against the rim. Heavy and medium duty trucks use hub-centric wheels.
Wheels using conical lug nuts are lug-centered, in other words, most car wheels are lug-centered. If they were not lug-centered, the lug nuts would not be able to properly clamp the rim on to the hub. So I have to disagree with CapriRacer.
My Sierra rims use conical lug nuts and also the rim centre hole fits snugly on to the hub, so perhaps this is an instance of a wheel being both hub-centric and lug-centric. But I still stand by my statement that any wheel using conical lug nuts is lug-centered.
I would have to agree 100%. A 60 degree tapered lug nut, is where the clamping force is, regardless of the hub. Most Toyotas, and older F150's are the only ones without tapered lug nuts. Hub to mismatched bolt circle interference is why studs break sometimes.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I know of no vehicle manufacturer that doesn't use hub centering.
A true hub-centric wheel uses lug nuts with a flat flange that clamps against the rim. Heavy and medium duty trucks use hub-centric wheels.
Wheels using conical lug nuts are lug-centered, in other words, most car wheels are lug-centered. If they were not lug-centered, the lug nuts would not be able to properly clamp the rim on to the hub. So I have to disagree with CapriRacer.
My Sierra rims use conical lug nuts and also the rim centre hole fits snugly on to the hub, so perhaps this is an instance of a wheel being both hub-centric and lug-centric. But I still stand by my statement that any wheel using conical lug nuts is lug-centered.
I would have to agree 100%. A 60 degree tapered lug nut, is where the clamping force is, regardless of the hub. Most Toyotas, and older F150's are the only ones without tapered lug nuts. Hub to mismatched bolt circle interference is why studs break sometimes.
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Originally Posted By: George7941
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I know of no vehicle manufacturer that doesn't use hub centering.
A true hub-centric wheel uses lug nuts with a flat flange that clamps against the rim. Heavy and medium duty trucks use hub-centric wheels.
Wheels using conical lug nuts are lug-centered, in other words, most car wheels are lug-centered. If they were not lug-centered, the lug nuts would not be able to properly clamp the rim on to the hub. So I have to disagree with CapriRacer.
My Sierra rims use conical lug nuts and also the rim centre hole fits snugly on to the hub, so perhaps this is an instance of a wheel being both hub-centric and lug-centric. But I still stand by my statement that any wheel using conical lug nuts is lug-centered.
George,
While I agree in theory with what you say, I think some (many?) vehicle manufacturers switched to hub centric mounting without changing lug nut tapers. I've had several conversations with engineers at vehicle manufacturers where they've talked about the tapered lug nuts distorting the wheel enough to affect the centering.
What I am trying to say is that there is theory and there is practice, and what the car manufacturers actually do is the most important item here - and to my knowledge they all use hub piloting even if they use tapered lug nuts.
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I know of no vehicle manufacturer that doesn't use hub centering.
A true hub-centric wheel uses lug nuts with a flat flange that clamps against the rim. Heavy and medium duty trucks use hub-centric wheels.
Wheels using conical lug nuts are lug-centered, in other words, most car wheels are lug-centered. If they were not lug-centered, the lug nuts would not be able to properly clamp the rim on to the hub. So I have to disagree with CapriRacer.
My Sierra rims use conical lug nuts and also the rim centre hole fits snugly on to the hub, so perhaps this is an instance of a wheel being both hub-centric and lug-centric. But I still stand by my statement that any wheel using conical lug nuts is lug-centered.
George,
While I agree in theory with what you say, I think some (many?) vehicle manufacturers switched to hub centric mounting without changing lug nut tapers. I've had several conversations with engineers at vehicle manufacturers where they've talked about the tapered lug nuts distorting the wheel enough to affect the centering.
What I am trying to say is that there is theory and there is practice, and what the car manufacturers actually do is the most important item here - and to my knowledge they all use hub piloting even if they use tapered lug nuts.
Followup:
I chatted via "live chat" with Ross at Tire Rack.
He confirmed that OE wheels are pretty much all hub piloted.
HOWEVER, he said that they used ball seats for the lugs - which I was wrong about.
BUT
He did say that aftermarket wheels sometimes have hub rings in combination with tapered lug nut seats, so that part isn't as clean cut as it could be.
I chatted via "live chat" with Ross at Tire Rack.
He confirmed that OE wheels are pretty much all hub piloted.
HOWEVER, he said that they used ball seats for the lugs - which I was wrong about.
BUT
He did say that aftermarket wheels sometimes have hub rings in combination with tapered lug nut seats, so that part isn't as clean cut as it could be.
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