Small Arms Caliber Debate

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I always did think it was stupid to trade up capacity for caliper. The .223 is a small game varmint round. I thought the M-14 was the perfect battle rifle. Yet, it was too heavy for our new military, I guess. Accuracy should be more emphasised then just blowing rounds. I know it would be scarier hiding g from .308 then .223. Anyone every shot at with a big round 30-06. Knows what I mean. Bad A.
 
Having a round and rifle that's optimal from CQB to 1000 meters using existing tech is a pipe dream.
 
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I always did think it was stupid to trade up capacity for caliper. The .223 is a small game varmint round. I thought the M-14 was the perfect battle rifle. Yet, it was too heavy for our new military, I guess. Accuracy should be more emphasised then just blowing rounds. I know it would be scarier hiding g from .308 then .223. Anyone every shot at with a big round 30-06. Knows what I mean. Bad A.
M14 isn't so great for clearing houses.
 
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I always did think it was stupid to trade up capacity for caliper. The .223 is a small game varmint round. I thought the M-14 was the perfect battle rifle. Yet, it was too heavy for our new military, I guess. Accuracy should be more emphasised then just blowing rounds. I know it would be scarier hiding g from .308 then .223. Anyone every shot at with a big round 30-06. Knows what I mean. Bad A.


But the 5.56 is "High Velocity" (from another thread LOL)

I see why they did it, and agree that you can't easily transistion from one to the other...

As to the points you are making, our rifle range goes out to 900 yards. When you are working the butts, and the shooters are at 900 yards, the .308s clearly would have you worried as a potential target...the .223 doesn't have the pucker factor as it passes over your head.

Lee Enfield had "volley" sights were for out to a couple thousand yards to make a "beaten path" where you really didn't feel like walking/marching into.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
M14 isn't so great for clearing houses.


That's why they carry side arms.


Just use a real good pepper spray through the letterbox or down the chimney if it's a Police job. The military don't use handguns to clear a house, they use an RPG or hand grenades if they don't have one handy. If it's less than 3 brick width walls a heavy machine gun will also work.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
a 2010 article, so a bit dated...fits with the can't decide on a pistol thread along side it.

http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2010/09/the-small-arms-calibre-debate/

I know that Oz has been playing with some mid caliber ammo out at the range in town...not sure of the platform, as they get very secretive.


Great article. Sounds like most guys prefer the .308 and that it was/is a significantly more effective cartridge. The issue is the recoil, which leads to slower follow-up shots. I'm sure that could be dealt with, at least in part, by an improved chassis designed to reduce felt recoil, if one were looking at a new rifle to work with an existing (or, as per the article, "battle proven") cartridge.
 
It has always been my understanding that "killing" was not the primary goal.

A dead soldier is 1 removed from the fight.

A wounded, screaming/crying soldier can remove 3+ from the fight.

If I remember correctly, this was a lesson learned from the Japanese in WW2.
 
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL


Great article. Sounds like most guys prefer the .308 and that it was/is a significantly more effective cartridge. The issue is the recoil, which leads to slower follow-up shots. I'm sure that could be dealt with, at least in part, by an improved chassis designed to reduce felt recoil, if one were looking at a new rifle to work with an existing (or, as per the article, "battle proven") cartridge.

The weight and bulk of a 7.62 platform and ammo over 5.56 is significant. Soldiers these days are humping a lot of gear. 7.62/.308 is out and never to return for the average soldier.
 
Originally Posted By: KJSmith
It has always been my understanding that "killing" was not the primary goal.

A dead soldier is 1 removed from the fight.

A wounded, screaming/crying soldier can remove 3+ from the fight.

If I remember correctly, this was a lesson learned from the Japanese in WW2.



Well, that doesn't work well when you shoot them 10 times or more.
 
Most tool boxes have different size wrenches. The problem is that government people aren't held responsible and dead men tell no tales. Most wars are no more than a waste of valuable resources. The silly voters do not realize that war with out profit and victory is foolish and quite a waste.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I always did think it was stupid to trade up capacity for caliper. The .223 is a small game varmint round. I thought the M-14 was the perfect battle rifle. Yet, it was too heavy for our new military, I guess. Accuracy should be more emphasised then just blowing rounds. I know it would be scarier hiding g from .308 then .223. Anyone every shot at with a big round 30-06. Knows what I mean. Bad A.
M14 isn't so great for clearing houses.


Seriously, you are kidding. How does a M-16 work better for clearing houses. I am shooting through walls, doors. Pillars etc. With a .308. Did you ever see what a .308 or 30-06 does to cars and houses. Ouch. I had some old WW2 armor piercing 30-06. It went through o e side of a train coal car and out the other. No, I disagree. You ain't hiding in a house with a .308.
 
I be thought about this and during a revolution or apocalypse type event. I would take my Winchester 30-06 bolt action with a scope over my AR or AK. I am a advocate of accuracy and penetration over throwing bullets with the hope they hit you. But that's what they teach now in the army.
 
Originally Posted By: Panzerman


Seriously, you are kidding. How does a M-16 work better for clearing houses. I am shooting through walls, doors. Pillars etc. With a .308. Did you ever see what a .308 or 30-06 does to cars and houses. Ouch. I had some old WW2 armor piercing 30-06. It went through o e side of a train coal car and out the other. No, I disagree. You ain't hiding in a house with a .308.
Most guys that actually do stuff are a lot faster with a M4 or shorter gun vs a M14. If your plan is to riddle the house with bullets you'd go ahead and opt for a 240 or 60 or drone strike.
 
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
M14 isn't so great for clearing houses.


That's why they carry side arms.


Just use a real good pepper spray through the letterbox or down the chimney if it's a Police job. The military don't use handguns to clear a house, they use an RPG or hand grenades if they don't have one handy. If it's less than 3 brick width walls a heavy machine gun will also work.
The young men i know that were in Iraq tell me the shot gun is the weapon of choice.
 
Originally Posted By: CT8
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: hatt
M14 isn't so great for clearing houses.


That's why they carry side arms.


Just use a real good pepper spray through the letterbox or down the chimney if it's a Police job. The military don't use handguns to clear a house, they use an RPG or hand grenades if they don't have one handy. If it's less than 3 brick width walls a heavy machine gun will also work.
The young men i know that were in Iraq tell me the shot gun is the weapon of choice.


At close range, right?
 
I wrote graduate research on small arms development and procurement in the early cold war in the USA (1945-68). The small caliber high velocity concept gained an awful lot of traction when the AR15 was tested in the early 60's in Vietnam. At the time it was being considered as a platform to arm the small stature ARVN forces that were still using ww2 and Korean War surplus like M1 and M2 carbines. The data collected by ARPA (Advanced Research Project Agency) showed the ammunition had massive wound capabilities. They were getting reports from advisors (remember that the USA was not the primary combatant yet) that the round was killing about 90% of those hit.

So when the M14 production was halted before procurement was anywhere near complete due to massive issues with contractors like H&R and we found ourselves in the mix officially, we had no other platform to really turn to but the M16 and the 5.56 round. Of course we made many small changes including altering the twist from 1 in 14 inches to 1 in 12 inches to pass muster in cold weather accuracy. But between the ARPA reports, the weight savings, the increased control over the M14 in full auto, and the belief that it was ultra reliable it is not hard to see why someone like Robert MacNamara, the ultimate bean counter, was happy to support the switch. He was not alone given Curtis LeMay had pushed for the same gun and ammo a few years earlier.

If you can find a copy, Ed Ezell's "The Black Rifle" does a good job of showing how the switch came about and the debate. Plus it has cool pics of prototypes and hard to find documents.
 
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