Full vs. semi-synthetic -- is it $$ difference?

[SkipII]

My question is not just about my motorcycle (2014 Indian Chief Vintage) but also about my wife's car (2012 Hyundai Azera), but I post it here because the bike likely presents more considerations since it is a shared sump system.

Most everything I read on semi-synthetics (recommended for both the Indian and the Hyundai) seems to suggest the blend is simper an economic issue -- getting some benefit on synthetic without the cost. I personally don't consider the extra cost of synthetic (the price of two large pizzas) at each oil change to be a big deal, so I would have no problem going with full synthetic that met the right specs.

That said, is there a practical reason why I should stay with semi-synthetic?

 

[BrocLuno]

Real synthetics (PAO & POE) have much less surface tension that dino oils. So they exhibit a "drain-off" effect when left sitting for some time. For some engines, this is not noticeable, For some it is and will cause some clatter on cold start. you'll know if yours suffers from this the first time you try it.

In the USA, the word synthetic is OK to use with highly refined dino oils. So it's a much blurrier issue. Most USA synthetics are really highly hydro-refined dino oils. Some are made with GTL technology.

So the Hyundai will likely not care one way or the other. It'll tell you if it does...

The bike might. The clutch might not like full synthetic and it will change the engagement point or the take-up feel. I doubt it will slip. It might on a full boogy clutch dump hard leave from a dead stop... I'd rather use a syn-blend so that some dino oil mitigates the synthetic for that clutch.

I run dino oils in my Harley. It's quieter and smoother. But I have separate primary/tranny from the motor. Buddies have tried AmsOil and all sorts of stuff, and they always come back to GTX.

Your bike is more like a typical Japanese bike as far as shared sump. So I'd be looking at the narrowest spread (XW-XX) oil I could find that meets your owners manual viscosity ranges.

If it will work, I'd be looking at Chevron Delo 400 SD 15W-30. SD stands for Severe Duty and a shared sump is one of the text book examples of severe duty

 

[skyactiv]

I think just about every 5W20 and 5W30 is actually a semi-synthetic, even if it says conventional on the bottle.

 

[CT8]

Syn oils have their advantages and disadvantages . Most here fall for the marketing . Todays oils aren't the oils of the 1970's. Pick one and run it. No need to put the effort for a magic oil.

 

[SkipII]

I appreciate the responses, but my question was not to solicit suggestions on what to use, but to simply understand whether there is some practical reason a manufacture would recommend semi-synthetic instead of going full synthetic, unless it is just to reduce costs. I don't know what qualities of dino oil are lost in going to synthetic, nor do I understand what, if anything, is lost or diminished in dropping down from full synthetic to semi-synthetic.

I'm getting close to not caring much about it!

 

[Bzab32]

It comes down to oil change intervals, a synthetic will last longer than a semi-syn. Example on your car you can run a semi-syn 7.5K miles and run a synthetic 10K-15K (within 1-2 years). On a motorcycle where most people change yearly or with low miles (<3000) both would work basically the same. Or if you change your car every 5K miles the syn wouldnt show its advantage.

 

[Spur]

BrocLuno gave you the main reasons/advantages. Short change intervals in bikes, clutch performance, capillary action/surface tension. I would throw in cost, but the manufacturers charge way too much for their brand.

You can run the TS111 on the 15-40 HDEOs and spend a lot less money.

 

[69GTX]

Major brand synthetic oils seem to be on sale more often than blends and conventionals. It's not hard to find top brand synthetics for sale all throughout the year for $2/qt after rebate. And then there's the AutoZone Nov/December clearances where synthetics are sold for $2/qt w/o a rebate. Pennzoil is running a $2/qt rebate the rest of 2016. Mobil 1 just finished one in May. Max Life syn blend is running a rebate where you net out around $1.40/qt at current WM rollback prices.

Follow the rebate/coupon Forum and see what's up. There is essentially no cost issue between synthetics, synthetic blends, or even conventionals for DIYers. I can typically get PP and PUP cheaper than their conventional PYB. $$ difference should not be an issue...just the performance on what you're looking for out of your motor oil.

 

[SuperSalad]

The simple answer without getting into details is yes. Using a semi-synthetic instead of a full synthetic is an economical decision. The only real differences you will get are in your OCI and the retail price.

Sometimes you save money by paying more up front depending on the OCI, but if you do the math you'll see how to best spend your money.

 

[Spur]

I certainly agree with the economy statement. You can run a conventional or semi-synthetic for the manufacturers recommend OCI without any problems. If you are going to use something like Redline or other pricey synthetic, you really need to do some UOAs to increase the OCI to the point it becomes cost effective.

Otherwise, you are probably wasting money. But, if it lets you sleep better at night, them maybe it is worth it.

 

[SkipII]

OCI...OCI...jargon. I definitely would want to increase my OCI, maybe using some of those UOAs. That'll do the trick.

Translation, please?!

That's what I get for being a non-geek on a geek site!

My question really did not get answered. It was not my economics, it was why manufacturers would recommend semi-synthetic. My assumption is that it was to lower their costs and reduce the initial cost of ownership (ah-hah! ICO -- just figured it out!!!).

As well, I was trying to understand what the practical effect (plus or minus) was of blending them.

Net out of all this is that I think I may excuse myself from all this fairly arcane debate and just go back to my Indian 20W-40 semi. The oil is changed every 5,000 miles anyway, so hard to imagine a problem. Using synthetic never solved my balky shifter problem anyway.

 

[Spur]

Sorry Skip, just a easier to type the alphabet soup.

OCI - Oil Change Interval (5000 miles for the TS111)
UOA- Used Oil Analysis. UOA is a sample of used oil that is analyzed by a lab to get some REAL DATA on how the oil is performing. It can be used to get your OCI right to minimize your cost and maximize performance. It can also be used to see how the engine is wearing and can show potential problems before they become serious

The Indian semi-synthetic is over priced, but is a good oil for the factory recommend OCI. There are other conventional and semi-synthetics that will do just as good or better at less cost.

The synthetics, especially, the "real" synthetics like a Redline or Motul, etc are fairly pricey. (I am gonna catch some grief for this statement lol)To get the economy from them, you would need to run a longer OCI than the factory recommend 5000 miles.

If you are looking for a good "American defined" synthetic, you could run Mobil 1 VTwin 20w50 or the 4t 10w40. You can get it for around $10 a quart. It is a very good product as are others.

There are many good options that will do a great job. It just depends what is important to you. Economy, peace of mind, not worrying about having oil samples analyzed, etc.

Just to give an example, i run Chevron Delo 15w40 and a fram XG7317 filter on my TS111. It has returned excellent UOAs. Delo is $12 a gallon at Walmart and the filter is $8 at Walmart. Based on UOAs and my perception of shift quality, I change the oil at 4000 miles and I change the filter every other oil change.

I am comfortable with this and I know through analysis it works. I am not recommending you do what I do. Just an illustration of the many options available.

If worrying about this stuff is not your thing, just do what the manufacturers say and use their products and the motor will last a long time.

A motorcycle is for enjoyment, so that should be your primary focus. Too much worrying about oil and filters takes away from that. Use a good oil and filter, change when recommend and just enjoy the ride. Oils and filters today are all very good, no real need to lose sleep over it. Quite frankly the Walmart super tech Diesel engine oil is a very good oil.

Most of what you hear on the Indian forums is myth and wives tales because that's what my father always did. He was always right. A lot has changed since our Fathers days concerning oil and filters.

Enjoy the ride!!!

 

[SuperSalad]

The reason the OEMs recommend products is almost always related to their own economics. Namely, what can they pull the largest profit margin from. By having "synthetic" in the name even if it is a semi, they can pull a more premium price for it and therefore a larger margin without shelling out as much cost themselves for the product. I could be wrong, but that appears to be the main basis of a lot of the lubricant recommendations I see in my work.

 

[yvon_la]

Originally Posted By: SkipII
My question is not just about my motorcycle (2014 Indian Chief Vintage) but also about my wife's car (2012 Hyundai Azera), but I post it here because the bike likely presents more considerations since it is a shared sump system.

Most everything I read on semi-synthetics (recommended for both the Indian and the Hyundai) seems to suggest the blend is simper an economic issue -- getting some benefit on synthetic without the cost. I personally don't consider the extra cost of synthetic (the price of two large pizzas) at each oil change to be a big deal, so I would have no problem going with full synthetic that met the right specs.

That said, is there a practical reason why I should stay with semi-synthetic?
any oil rated tes295 with an AN number from Allison should do well .but this engine is an interesting case.usually engine oil is one thing and. Transmission oil is another thing .but here you need an oil that is good on transmission and the same oil need to be good on engine also .so I don't think normal engine oil should be used.
By the way Indian And victory oil is likely a special blend .if you read here on this forum you ll see that nobody would ever put engine oil in a manual transmission .and people would never put a normal transmission oil in an engine. So if you get the opportunity .you should send your Indian oil to Blackstone for analysis .since I don't think bitog ever had an oil with dual duty job like the Indian (victory)

 

[Atesz792]

Yvon your posts don't make any sense on a regular basis.
The majority of motorcycles use shared sumps for both engine & transmission. Wet clutches even.
Also full of grammatic errors. This is not my first language and it still bothers me. I could only imagine how others read these posts. Are you high or something?

 

[George7941]

You will have to excuse Yvon's grammatic errors because he is from Quebec and likely has French as his mother tongue.

 

[Atesz792]

As I have stated, mine's also very different from English.

 

[SlipperyPete]

The Quebecois don't have a first language as far as I can tell.

 

[George7941]

Originally Posted By: Atesz792
As I have stated, mine's also very different from English.


So what? People differ in their skills in a second language.