I always thought the Honda pros advised changing the oil filter every other oil change???????????
Honda patents engine with different cylinder dis.
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Originally Posted By: Trav
The next VCM fiasco brewing. Honda has a history of building good basic engines then totally ruining those same engines with unproven home brewed whiz bang technology.
IMO it would have been better if they would have just stayed building motorcycles and simple little cars.
What do you think about home brewed VTEC ?
Before 1988 nobody had any thing similar to Honda's VTEC. After 1990 all manufactures started to do researches and came up with something not quite similar but in effect do some variable valve timing, but not as effective. Without VTEC 1990 NSX could not make 90 HP/L and at the same time had smooth idle, same for 2000 S2000 with 120 HP/L and 9000 RPM and smooth idle too.
I agree VCM idea is good but implementation isn't very good.
The next VCM fiasco brewing. Honda has a history of building good basic engines then totally ruining those same engines with unproven home brewed whiz bang technology.
IMO it would have been better if they would have just stayed building motorcycles and simple little cars.
What do you think about home brewed VTEC ?
Before 1988 nobody had any thing similar to Honda's VTEC. After 1990 all manufactures started to do researches and came up with something not quite similar but in effect do some variable valve timing, but not as effective. Without VTEC 1990 NSX could not make 90 HP/L and at the same time had smooth idle, same for 2000 S2000 with 120 HP/L and 9000 RPM and smooth idle too.
I agree VCM idea is good but implementation isn't very good.
Never would have thought of applying it to cars.
Had to do a feasibility design for a small hydro on a local dam some years ago.
They hydro turbine manufacturers charge an absolute fortune, so I investigated and found ways of using centrifugal pumps AS turbines, running them in reverse, and over synchronous speed they become turbine/generators, and only cost $10s of K rather than hundreds, and can be sourced virtually off the shelf.
Problem is fixed flow non variable load.
So I picked a family of pumps, size 1, size 2, and size 4, which combined gave me 7 steps of volume flow rate/power output.
Alas it never made it to fruition, but it knocked $100k off the project.
Had to do a feasibility design for a small hydro on a local dam some years ago.
They hydro turbine manufacturers charge an absolute fortune, so I investigated and found ways of using centrifugal pumps AS turbines, running them in reverse, and over synchronous speed they become turbine/generators, and only cost $10s of K rather than hundreds, and can be sourced virtually off the shelf.
Problem is fixed flow non variable load.
So I picked a family of pumps, size 1, size 2, and size 4, which combined gave me 7 steps of volume flow rate/power output.
Alas it never made it to fruition, but it knocked $100k off the project.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Trav
The next VCM fiasco brewing. Honda has a history of building good basic engines then totally ruining those same engines with unproven home brewed whiz bang technology.
IMO it would have been better if they would have just stayed building motorcycles and simple little cars.
What do you think about home brewed VTEC ?
Before 1988 nobody had any thing similar to Honda's VTEC. After 1990 all manufactures started to do researches and came up with something not quite similar but in effect do some variable valve timing, but not as effective. Without VTEC 1990 NSX could not make 90 HP/L and at the same time had smooth idle, same for 2000 S2000 with 120 HP/L and 9000 RPM and smooth idle too.
I agree VCM idea is good but implementation isn't very good.
Fact is they didn't need it to make 100hp/l they already did that with the 135hp CBR1000F from 998cc in 92 without it and it had a glass smooth idle and over a 12K redline.
They couldn't reach those HP levels in the NSX without it?
Honda didn't really invent anything, they patented a better mouse trap, the idea of VVT goes all the way back to steam engines. They made a few good small cars and some great bikes but today are on a downhill slide.
Originally Posted By: Trav
The next VCM fiasco brewing. Honda has a history of building good basic engines then totally ruining those same engines with unproven home brewed whiz bang technology.
IMO it would have been better if they would have just stayed building motorcycles and simple little cars.
What do you think about home brewed VTEC ?
Before 1988 nobody had any thing similar to Honda's VTEC. After 1990 all manufactures started to do researches and came up with something not quite similar but in effect do some variable valve timing, but not as effective. Without VTEC 1990 NSX could not make 90 HP/L and at the same time had smooth idle, same for 2000 S2000 with 120 HP/L and 9000 RPM and smooth idle too.
I agree VCM idea is good but implementation isn't very good.
Fact is they didn't need it to make 100hp/l they already did that with the 135hp CBR1000F from 998cc in 92 without it and it had a glass smooth idle and over a 12K redline.
They couldn't reach those HP levels in the NSX without it?
Honda didn't really invent anything, they patented a better mouse trap, the idea of VVT goes all the way back to steam engines. They made a few good small cars and some great bikes but today are on a downhill slide.
Honda didn't invent VVT, but they invented VTEC a sophisticated form of VVT(which can control the lift for low and high RPM) which no car manufacture in the world including BMW and Porsche and Ferrari ... could imagine it was possible before 1990.
Going back to 1991 when NSX was introduced, did any car manufacture in the world had any engine(normally aspirated piston) that passed US emission made more than 80-85 HP/L and rev more than 7000-7500 RPM ? NSX with VTEC can rev to 8000 RPM and made 90HP/L which was better than any.
How about Honda S2000 ? Did any car company in the world was capable of making more than 110 HP/L and rev more than 8000 RPM and passed US emission (without cheating like VW) around the year 2000 ? With 2L it made 240 HP which was about the same power of 2.5-3.0L engines at that time, it can rev to 9000 RPM which no other car can touch.
If you're looking at current data you will find that some exotic cars can now rev above 8500-9000 RPM and some made more than 110-120 HP/L.
When Honda choose to play with the big boys in Formula One in the 80's they did very well, they dominated F1 for some years.
Yes, they do make small engines for cheap cars such Civics, Accords ... but that doesn't mean they are not capable of making it as efficient as anyone else.
Just a reminder, Honda as a company is producing more engine(for many different applications) than anyone, in a year they make more than 30 million engines of all type.
Going back to 1991 when NSX was introduced, did any car manufacture in the world had any engine(normally aspirated piston) that passed US emission made more than 80-85 HP/L and rev more than 7000-7500 RPM ? NSX with VTEC can rev to 8000 RPM and made 90HP/L which was better than any.
How about Honda S2000 ? Did any car company in the world was capable of making more than 110 HP/L and rev more than 8000 RPM and passed US emission (without cheating like VW) around the year 2000 ? With 2L it made 240 HP which was about the same power of 2.5-3.0L engines at that time, it can rev to 9000 RPM which no other car can touch.
If you're looking at current data you will find that some exotic cars can now rev above 8500-9000 RPM and some made more than 110-120 HP/L.
When Honda choose to play with the big boys in Formula One in the 80's they did very well, they dominated F1 for some years.
Yes, they do make small engines for cheap cars such Civics, Accords ... but that doesn't mean they are not capable of making it as efficient as anyone else.
Just a reminder, Honda as a company is producing more engine(for many different applications) than anyone, in a year they make more than 30 million engines of all type.
Yep they make good lawnmower and bike engines that true.
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Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Honda didn't invent VVT, but they invented VTEC a sophisticated form of VVT(which can control the lift for low and high RPM)
You just made it sound WAY more complex than it is/was, which was simply a more aggressive set of lobes, with their own rocker, on the same cam, which, at a specific RPM, would lock with a pin to the main rockers and run on this more aggressive secondary camshaft profile.
It enabled an engine with the potential to make more power at higher RPM, still run reasonably well at lower RPM without idling poorly and being a complete dog until that camshaft profile came into its power band.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
which no car manufacture in the world including BMW and Porsche and Ferrari ... could imagine it was possible before 1990.
How do you know? the fact nobody has copied that design (that I am aware of) and have all gone to various forms of adjusting the advance/retard of the camshafts themselves seems to indicate that none were overly blown away by this.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Going back to 1991 when NSX was introduced, did any car manufacture in the world had any engine(normally aspirated piston) that passed US emission made more than 80-85 HP/L and rev more than 7000-7500 RPM ? NSX with VTEC can rev to 8000 RPM and made 90HP/L which was better than any.
How about Honda S2000 ? Did any car company in the world was capable of making more than 110 HP/L and rev more than 8000 RPM and passed US emission (without cheating like VW) around the year 2000 ? With 2L it made 240 HP which was about the same power of 2.5-3.0L engines at that time, it can rev to 9000 RPM which no other car can touch.
Yes, we've discussed this before, BMW did. You just forget that somehow every time we've had this discussion and I refuse to go to the effort to copy and paste everything from the past 4,000 times we've hashed that over and deposit it into this into this thread.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
If you're looking at current data you will find that some exotic cars can now rev above 8500-9000 RPM and some made more than 110-120 HP/L.
The 1964 Ford 427 SOHC didn't make peak HP until 7,500RPM with the dual quads, and made 657HP. And this was a huge V8. The old late 60's BOSS 302 could be spun over 8K as well, though was not shipped in a form that did.
The "current" BOSS 302 has a 7,500RPM redline and can rev to 8,400RPM. The even newer "Voodoo" 5.2L Ford, in the GT350, makes 526HP (101HP/L) and has an 8,250RPM redline. Unlike the S2000 however, since it utilizes VCT, it still manages a fantastic torque curve, putting out 429lb-ft. It is also hardly "exotic".
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
When Honda choose to play with the big boys in Formula One in the 80's they did very well, they dominated F1 for some years.
Yes, they do make small engines for cheap cars such Civics, Accords ... but that doesn't mean they are not capable of making it as efficient as anyone else.
Just a reminder, Honda as a company is producing more engine(for many different applications) than anyone, in a year they make more than 30 million engines of all type.
I have a Honda engine on my lawnmower and our little 9.9HP outboard has been fantastic. They make absolutely great OPE products. My buddy swears by their ATV's and dirt bikes. Their performance in the automotive realm has had black eyes just like everybody else however, from glass transmissions in the Odyssey and Accord, porous block castings, sludge and failure prone MDS implementations....etc.
Honda didn't invent VVT, but they invented VTEC a sophisticated form of VVT(which can control the lift for low and high RPM)
You just made it sound WAY more complex than it is/was, which was simply a more aggressive set of lobes, with their own rocker, on the same cam, which, at a specific RPM, would lock with a pin to the main rockers and run on this more aggressive secondary camshaft profile.
It enabled an engine with the potential to make more power at higher RPM, still run reasonably well at lower RPM without idling poorly and being a complete dog until that camshaft profile came into its power band.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
which no car manufacture in the world including BMW and Porsche and Ferrari ... could imagine it was possible before 1990.
How do you know? the fact nobody has copied that design (that I am aware of) and have all gone to various forms of adjusting the advance/retard of the camshafts themselves seems to indicate that none were overly blown away by this.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Going back to 1991 when NSX was introduced, did any car manufacture in the world had any engine(normally aspirated piston) that passed US emission made more than 80-85 HP/L and rev more than 7000-7500 RPM ? NSX with VTEC can rev to 8000 RPM and made 90HP/L which was better than any.
How about Honda S2000 ? Did any car company in the world was capable of making more than 110 HP/L and rev more than 8000 RPM and passed US emission (without cheating like VW) around the year 2000 ? With 2L it made 240 HP which was about the same power of 2.5-3.0L engines at that time, it can rev to 9000 RPM which no other car can touch.
Yes, we've discussed this before, BMW did. You just forget that somehow every time we've had this discussion and I refuse to go to the effort to copy and paste everything from the past 4,000 times we've hashed that over and deposit it into this into this thread.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
If you're looking at current data you will find that some exotic cars can now rev above 8500-9000 RPM and some made more than 110-120 HP/L.
The 1964 Ford 427 SOHC didn't make peak HP until 7,500RPM with the dual quads, and made 657HP. And this was a huge V8. The old late 60's BOSS 302 could be spun over 8K as well, though was not shipped in a form that did.
The "current" BOSS 302 has a 7,500RPM redline and can rev to 8,400RPM. The even newer "Voodoo" 5.2L Ford, in the GT350, makes 526HP (101HP/L) and has an 8,250RPM redline. Unlike the S2000 however, since it utilizes VCT, it still manages a fantastic torque curve, putting out 429lb-ft. It is also hardly "exotic".
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
When Honda choose to play with the big boys in Formula One in the 80's they did very well, they dominated F1 for some years.
Yes, they do make small engines for cheap cars such Civics, Accords ... but that doesn't mean they are not capable of making it as efficient as anyone else.
Just a reminder, Honda as a company is producing more engine(for many different applications) than anyone, in a year they make more than 30 million engines of all type.
I have a Honda engine on my lawnmower and our little 9.9HP outboard has been fantastic. They make absolutely great OPE products. My buddy swears by their ATV's and dirt bikes. Their performance in the automotive realm has had black eyes just like everybody else however, from glass transmissions in the Odyssey and Accord, porous block castings, sludge and failure prone MDS implementations....etc.
V-tec is just a name. Why would any other automaker use it and pay royalties to Honda when they have their own systems that do the exact same thing?
But of course, here we go again with the "nobody did the exact same thing Honda did, at the exact same time, yada, yada, yada, so Honda is superior".
But of course, here we go again with the "nobody did the exact same thing Honda did, at the exact same time, yada, yada, yada, so Honda is superior".
To my knowledge, Alfa Romeo was the first to have variable valve timing, with the 2000 in their 1980 Spider.
IMO one of the main advantages of VTEC was its amazing simplicity. That is where Honda used to excel.
Variable cam timing with smooth advance and retard is far more difficult to implement and far more effective as well. Rather like a dimmer switch versus a simple on-off.
Redline can be whatever you can afford. I put together many a small block Chevy that had an astronomical redline, but they never lasted like a Honda!
Variable cam timing with smooth advance and retard is far more difficult to implement and far more effective as well. Rather like a dimmer switch versus a simple on-off.
Redline can be whatever you can afford. I put together many a small block Chevy that had an astronomical redline, but they never lasted like a Honda!
Originally Posted By: Trav
Yep they make good lawnmower and bike engines that true.
LOL I cursed my Honda power washer engine years ago when the carb went and filled the crankcase with gas. Good thing I caught it early or I would have wrecked an engine. Their engines are good no doubt about it but not as great as some people make them out to be.
Yep they make good lawnmower and bike engines that true.
LOL I cursed my Honda power washer engine years ago when the carb went and filled the crankcase with gas. Good thing I caught it early or I would have wrecked an engine. Their engines are good no doubt about it but not as great as some people make them out to be.
I would be PO'd as well but stuff like that seems to happen with lots of small engines.
Honda does make good small engines but they haven't build a decent car engine in many years just mediocre cars at best, the S2000 was IMHO the last genuinely really good car they built.
In Europe and Germany they don't get good reviews either, their sales are lower than Dacia. The reason is simple, higher price, lower build quality, overly complex, expensive to repair and poor reliability.
Hyundai on the other hand is making great strides, lower cost, better built, basic simple reliable cars that are relatively inexpensive to repair, exactly the formula Honda made a name for itself with many years ago in the US.
I know one dealer who believes that Honda could be closing shop in Germany and maybe Europe within the next 5 years. Inside baseball? Honda better hope the Chicoms like their cars and prices them accordingly or they will fold or be taken over.
Some interesting articles.
http://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/2015-full-year-germany-best-selling-car-brands/
http://europe.autonews.com/article/20150123/ANE/150129887/honda-axes-accord-in-europe
Honda does make good small engines but they haven't build a decent car engine in many years just mediocre cars at best, the S2000 was IMHO the last genuinely really good car they built.
In Europe and Germany they don't get good reviews either, their sales are lower than Dacia. The reason is simple, higher price, lower build quality, overly complex, expensive to repair and poor reliability.
Hyundai on the other hand is making great strides, lower cost, better built, basic simple reliable cars that are relatively inexpensive to repair, exactly the formula Honda made a name for itself with many years ago in the US.
I know one dealer who believes that Honda could be closing shop in Germany and maybe Europe within the next 5 years. Inside baseball? Honda better hope the Chicoms like their cars and prices them accordingly or they will fold or be taken over.
Some interesting articles.
http://www.best-selling-cars.com/germany/2015-full-year-germany-best-selling-car-brands/
http://europe.autonews.com/article/20150123/ANE/150129887/honda-axes-accord-in-europe
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Trav
The next VCM fiasco brewing. Honda has a history of building good basic engines then totally ruining those same engines with unproven home brewed whiz bang technology.
IMO it would have been better if they would have just stayed building motorcycles and simple little cars.
What do you think about home brewed VTEC ?
Before 1988 nobody had any thing similar to Honda's VTEC. After 1990 all manufactures started to do researches and came up with something not quite similar but in effect do some variable valve timing, but not as effective. Without VTEC 1990 NSX could not make 90 HP/L and at the same time had smooth idle, same for 2000 S2000 with 120 HP/L and 9000 RPM and smooth idle too.
I agree VCM idea is good but implementation isn't very good.
Fact is they didn't need it to make 100hp/l they already did that with the 135hp CBR1000F from 998cc in 92 without it and it had a glass smooth idle and over a 12K redline.
They couldn't reach those HP levels in the NSX without it?
Honda didn't really invent anything, they patented a better mouse trap, the idea of VVT goes all the way back to steam engines. They made a few good small cars and some great bikes but today are on a downhill slide.
You mean the 900F? Maybe at the crank. 113 at the wheel. Also a motorcycle engine is doesn't have to have the low end torque characteristics a auto engine needs.
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
Originally Posted By: Trav
The next VCM fiasco brewing. Honda has a history of building good basic engines then totally ruining those same engines with unproven home brewed whiz bang technology.
IMO it would have been better if they would have just stayed building motorcycles and simple little cars.
What do you think about home brewed VTEC ?
Before 1988 nobody had any thing similar to Honda's VTEC. After 1990 all manufactures started to do researches and came up with something not quite similar but in effect do some variable valve timing, but not as effective. Without VTEC 1990 NSX could not make 90 HP/L and at the same time had smooth idle, same for 2000 S2000 with 120 HP/L and 9000 RPM and smooth idle too.
I agree VCM idea is good but implementation isn't very good.
Fact is they didn't need it to make 100hp/l they already did that with the 135hp CBR1000F from 998cc in 92 without it and it had a glass smooth idle and over a 12K redline.
They couldn't reach those HP levels in the NSX without it?
Honda didn't really invent anything, they patented a better mouse trap, the idea of VVT goes all the way back to steam engines. They made a few good small cars and some great bikes but today are on a downhill slide.
You mean the 900F? Maybe at the crank. 113 at the wheel. Also a motorcycle engine is doesn't have to have the low end torque characteristics a auto engine needs.
No I said the 1000F SC24
Recently while interviewing for an automotive company I read a lot about variable cylinder displacement. This concept would work if they can get the harmonics under control, because in theory if you can control the harmonics generated by each cylinder of different size independently, you can control the harmonics of the sum of them. The control would be the key and they probably have to model all possible combination of use cases well before production, as well as a lot of sensors to make sure it is not out of spec at run time.
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