Red Line 10W30 Motorcycle oil particle count

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Thanks for posting.

That and your UOA provides another really good data point on fiters and their effect.

I'm always going to change the filter a couple of weeks after changing the oil now.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Thanks for posting.

That and your UOA provides another really good data point on fiters and their effect.

I'm always going to change the filter a couple of weeks after changing the oil now.


Well, yeh....BUT.....the obvious, if naive, questions seem to be...

(a) SHOULD it have so many bits in it out of the bottle?
(b) Is it NORMAL? (similar question, but not the same).
(c) WHAT are they?

My understanding was that 4 microns is too small to be removed by a new standard oil filter, but I suppose a used one might be able to trap them.
 
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Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
Agglomerations?


If that's the case, they might go back into solution in use, in which case filter performance is irrelevant.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Thanks for posting.

That and your UOA provides another really good data point on fiters and their effect.

I'm always going to change the filter a couple of weeks after changing the oil now.


You're welcome.
smile.gif


As to the filter change-- Eh... One could do that, and the old filter may filter better than a new one, but then one would 're-contaminate' the sump (in terms of particle count) with the new make-up oil when the filter is changed. It may or may not be worthwhile. For me, it's needlessly fiddly. Perhaps you should share some particle counts from your new strategy.
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: Ducked


(a) SHOULD it have so many bits in it out of the bottle?
(b) Is it NORMAL? (similar question, but not the same).
(c) WHAT are they?

My understanding was that 4 microns is too small to be removed by a new standard oil filter, but I suppose a used one might be able to trap them.



It is normal. Some blenders or marketers deliver cleaner oil, some dirtier, but it's surprising to most how not-clean 'new' oil is.
 
Yeah, we learned a long time ago that the hydraulics on the turbine bypass needed filtering down to 5um on the way out of the drum, or we could never keep the system in spec.

Here's some of Stinky Peterson's VOAs with particle count.

Some blenders do a MUCH better job, and some only on their professional range.

37245297.JohnDeere10W30.jpg


37542143.Mobil10W40.jpg
 
Quite. I believe it is fair to say that we can expect 'run-of-the-mill' consumer motor oils to be fairly dirty.
 
So this is "dirt" (which I take to be mostly silica unless from an unusual source) rather than something derived from the oil, as in "agglomerates" above?

I vaguely remember a Morgan driver (I think) long ago saying something like "You don't put THAT stuff in your engine, do you? referring to Castrol GTX straight from the can.

Something about filtering it through chamois leather before use, which I'd have thought would be impossibly slow.
 
Thus my change the filter some weeks after the OCI...the filter is at it's best filtering at that point, and get the junk from the bottle out ASAP.

the residual has some partially reacted additives in it, so should be better than virgin oil at that point (wear wise, not contaminant)
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Thus my change the filter some weeks after the OCI...the filter is at it's best filtering at that point, and get the junk from the bottle out ASAP.

the residual has some partially reacted additives in it, so should be better than virgin oil at that point (wear wise, not contaminant)


Isn't this an exercise in diminishing returns? You could change your oil and filter every 3 months / 5,000 km and not have any meaningful additional wear compared to what you describe? Or is this the difference between an engine that requires a rebuild at 500K km vs. 300K km?
 
Originally Posted By: BobFout
Isn't this an exercise in diminishing returns? You could change your oil and filter every 3 months / 5,000 km and not have any meaningful additional wear compared to what you describe? Or is this the difference between an engine that requires a rebuild at 500K km vs. 300K km?


Almost certainly...

But it's no skin off my nose if I change the filter a month after the oil...I'll be checking something or pumping tyres at that point anyway.

explained more a few weeks ago

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4096319/New_oil_change_regime_-_half_c
 
Yes I decided to do a similar thing (though I go 2 oil changes with 1 filter).

I was reading the toilet paper filter thread yesterday. Very interesting and fairly cheap, but there's no rom at all under my hood and I don't want long oil lines external of the engine.
 
Originally Posted By: Ducked
So this is "dirt" (which I take to be mostly silica unless from an unusual source)


Why would you assume that? Do you see high silicon in short-duration UOAs, but lower in longer-duration ones? I don't.

Some may be 'dirt,' but I suppose a lot of it is 'stuff' in the plumbing, both at the blender and up- and down-stream.

Particle counts are super-inexpensive, so it wouldn't be tough (expensive) to track particle counts across the early portion of an OCI, if a person wanted to _know_, rather than blindly speculating based on non-automotive, non-engine, non-consumer-cost-effective notions. Then again, one would still be speculating as to how much, or even whether, those particle counts were causing any wear or issues that ever would or even could show up in the life of their vehicle.

I did what I did because of the transmission portion of this sump, even though I suspected the filter would 'mask' much of the utility. I then did the count on the clean fluid because, again, it's super cheap, and I don't mind sharing here.
 
Originally Posted By: bulwnkl
Originally Posted By: Ducked
So this is "dirt" (which I take to be mostly silica unless from an unusual source)


Why would you assume that?


It was a question. Hence the question mark in the original. But that seemed to be the implication from the industrial accounts of "dirty" new oil above.

If it is general environmental "dirt", I THINK its likely to be mostly silica, because I THINK general environmental dirt IS mostly silica.

If its derived from the oil its likely to be organic.

I don't know if the absolute quantity (as opposed to the particle count) of this stuff is sufficient for it to show up in a standard elemental oil analysis.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Thanks for posting.

That and your UOA provides another really good data point on filters and their effect.

I'm always going to change the filter a couple of weeks after changing the oil now.



A filter is at it's best filtering capacity right before it goes into by-pass or clogs. We saw a guy here do particulate counts on a Amsoil filter and got 35,000+ miles or more before it went into by-pass and when he was doing to ISO readings he had the best filtering just before the filter clogged. The "caking" affect of filtration is well known, you are wasting your money and inducing more/larger particulates by changing your filter. All high end synthetic filters are now good for 20,000 plus.

.
 
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