pistol grip shotgun wanted

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
If you do want a 410 there's a very nice load called Winchester PDX1 defender. It uses 3 plated discs and 12 pellets giving you a very effective load.

Do the math on the muzzle energy of those rounds and you will see how weak they really are and hence why no wise person ever uses them, especially in the 410 chambered handguns when 45 Colt is an option. If you take for instance the 750fps velocity advertised by winchester and assume that the discs in that load are 70 grains (equivalent to a 000 buck pellet) you get a whopping 87 ft. lbs of muzzle energy in those defense discs. That is just a little more than a 25 acp delivers (around 65 ft. lbs) and much less than a 32acp. That will not put a bad fella down reliably as it will lack penetration. You will get a bit more out of a longer barrel, but still mediocre.

 

[bubbatime]

.410 is a joke and should be bypassed. It's for squirrels.

Just get a full stock 12 gauge. Low recoil buckshot shells are readily available. With low recoil shells, it will be similar to shooting a 20 gauge.

If you are not handicapped, you can easily handle the recoil. Audie Murphy was one of our greatest war heroes and he was 5'5" and 110lbs. He handled a .308 battle rifle and 60lbs of gear on his back just fine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy

 

[901Memphis]

I don't think it's fair to compare it to small handgun rounds because we have a total of 15 projectiles, so the overall energy is more than one discs worth.

410 wouldn't be my first choice either but it beats a melee weapon especially if we start talking about landing multiple rounds and we have more projectiles in play, 30, 45, 60, 75.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I don't think it's fair to compare it to small handgun rounds because we have a total of 15 projectiles, so the overall energy is more than one discs worth.

410 wouldn't be my first choice either but it beats a melee weapon especially if we start talking about landing multiple rounds and we have more projectiles in play, 30, 45, 60, 75.


The overall energy load is more, but if you look at the energy of each individual projectile. That is what will carry it to vital internal organs. What you will end up with reliably are just horrible flesh wounds...which may neutralize a threat or not. It just does not have the mass and velocity needed. I would not feel secure with a 410 unless it loaded with slugs. But at that point if you need a low recoil long gun for home defense, a 223/5.56 rifle with good ammo would be vastly superior to a 410 shotty with any load.

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I don't think it's fair to compare it to small handgun rounds because we have a total of 15 projectiles, so the overall energy is more than one discs worth.


The .410 is what it is. Ineffective for personal defense, regardless of the loading. I have 2 of them that are nothing but range toys. A Mossberg .410 shotgun, and a Bond Arms Derringer. It isn't going to matter which one you fire whatever load out of. The .410 is a weak, ineffective round for self defense that lacks any penetration required for stopping assailants. There is no reason to even consider it, regardless of what overrated, overpriced gimmick round you load it with. As was mentioned, any average build male or female can handle a 12 gauge with a minimal of training. There is no good reason to even think about substituting it with a .410. It's a very poor decision that could easily get you killed.

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: billt460
The .410 is a weak, ineffective round for self defense that lacks any penetration required for stopping assailants.


You're better than being just another guy blovating on firearms, right?

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
If you do want a 410 there's a very nice load called Winchester PDX1 defender. It uses 3 plated discs and 12 pellets giving you a very effective load.

Pure marketing hogwash...

Very effective...using what standard? Because standard FBI tests on that load show lousy penetration, and that isn't surprising, given the low velocity.

Very effective pictures, though...

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
You're better than being just another guy blovating on firearms, right?


Considering I've used the load in both a Bond Arms Derringer, as well as a long barreled Mossberg shotgun, and found in either case the penetration was all but non existent.... Yes.

 

[Astro14]

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/06/robert-farago/winchester-pdx1-410-ammo-not-for-shotguns/

 

[Ramblejam]

Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
You're better than being just another guy blovating on firearms, right?


Considering I've used the load in both a Bond Arms Derringer, as well as a long barreled Mossberg shotgun, and found in either case the penetration was all but non existent.... Yes.


Say I have a standard, home defense shotgun (18.5" pump).

From this, I can fire one round that'll deliver a slug (expansion @ 0.645") to 14.5", and two .35 caliber lead balls to 24" in ballistics gel.

These will both impact at groups of 1.5" @ 15ft, and 2.25" @ 20ft.

Is this considered "all but non existent" penetration under your standards?

 

[billt460]

Just to add to what Astro posted.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/03/17/shouldnt-use-410-shotshells-defense/

 

[ZeeOSix]

12 ga 3" magnum #4 buckshot (41 .24 caliber pellets @ 1225 fps) ... why mess around.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
12 ga 3" magnum #4 buckshot (41 .24 caliber pellets @ 1225 fps) ... why mess around.


Now you speakin my language.....00 or #4 3" mags is the way to go. Or get both and alternate

 

[billt460]

Originally Posted By: Doog
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
12 ga 3" magnum #4 buckshot (41 .24 caliber pellets @ 1225 fps) ... why mess around.


Now you speakin my language.....00 or #4 3" mags is the way to go. Or get both and alternate.


I just don't understand the logic of screwing around with a .410 and gimmick loads to try and achieve the same result. It's idiotic.

 

[OneEyeJack]

In 1970 a young woman with her 2 toddlers faced off a home invader armed with a knife.

Her husband was off on a WestPac cruise (usually 6 months deployed at sea) in the Navy but had trained her to use a 12ga pump shotgun and also what to do in case of something like this.

The home invader caught her in the hallway with her children behind her. She brought her extensive training and practice into play. After being threatened with the knife she fired 5 shots at about 25 feet and hit him with every round. She had previously backed her kids into her bedroom and after shooting she backed in and hid behind furniture with her kids, reloaded and then called for help.

Later a police officer asked her why she shot him 5 times meaning why so many. She answered that she only shot him 5 times because that's all the rounds her shotgun held. She said she was terrified and wanted to make sure he was stopped to protect her children.

People only saw the fact that she used a 12ga shotgun but the key to her success was her training and practice which got lost in the after shooting publicity.

Some final notes. Almost every pellet of every round of the double 00 buckshot hit the target. The pattern spread at 25 feet was less than 6 inches. There was no hallway cleaning effect evidenced. Upon seeing the invader on the ground one could see why the shotgun is so effective.

She was not charged with a crime and this happened in California. This was a classic case of self defense even though the black community of the day claimed the woman had no right to use a shotgun against a man with knife. They claimed he was a nice guy that would never hurt anyone and just wanted money for child support payments, was always friendly and had just recently fallen in with the wrong crowd. They claimed that this was not like him and was all a mistake.

The truth. He was 6' tall, weighted 200 pounds and had a long and continuous arrest record for violent crimes including assault with a deadly weapon, attempted rape, robbery and purse snatching. This was the part that never made the news.

I believe that this family is alive and well because their home defense was treated as something that required much more than just the "correct gun".

 

[KCJeep]

Mama bear with a shotgun. About as dangerous as it gets if she knows how to use it. ^^^

 

[totegoat]

Only 5 times? Good shooting.

 

[Robenstein]

5 rounds of 00 buck from a 12 bore will do the job. As mentioned the gun is half the equation, the user is the other half of the weapon platform.

Can you use a marginal weapon effectively? Yes. Famed elephant hunter WDM Bell proved that by taking a bulk of his trophies with a 7mm Mauser when most were using what we think of as the big bore African calibers. But it took a VERY high level of skill as a shooter to make it work.

 

[CT8]

I used to love to go to the range and see the gangasta types bring out a pistol grip only shot gun. I would step back and stand at an angle to watch the shooter and 99 times out of 100 the shotgun would recoil into the shooters face and give him a bloody nose. I really enjoyed it, I don't know why but I really really did.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
Mama bear with a shotgun. About as dangerous as it gets if she knows how to use it. ^^^
You can't help but to admire Mama bear types. the Guppie mamas are disgusting.